Harpies Captivating Song Probable TPK


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

In our game session last night, I realized that a harpy's captivating song power, in the right situation, is basically a TPK power. Let me explain.

The party was trying to retake a treehouse from some harpies that had taken it over. The treehouse was built in rings of rooms around the huge tree. The party, going at night, got to the second set of rings, went inside and were attacked by 6 harpies (2 adults and 4 young harpies). The party of three defeated most of them and the last remaining young harpy used her captivating song, getting two of the characters captivated, and was going to flee to warn her leader. As she flew out the entry, I was going to have her continue to use her song until I realized something. If she just flew a hundred feet or so away in circles, the two captivated characters would basically walk off the edge of the treehouse (I know they would get a second save first) and plummet to their death 180 feet below.

My point is, why wouldn't harpies do this all the time. Harpies tend to live in groups. All they have to do is sing and fly out so the captivated characters have to walk off a cliff or cross a river or lake and, chances are, most of the party is just dead. Not much fun. Used properly, harpies seem like more than just a CR 4 monster.

If the harpies in my game had used their power properly, they would all have used their captivating song, probably getting all the party captivated (its tough to make all 6 saving throws), and flying out off the treehouse so the party walked out to fall to their death. TPK.

What's the general opinion on this?


There's this:

Captivating Song wrote:
A creature that successfully saves is not subject to the same harpy’s song for 24 hours.

CR 4 implies that one harpy is a challenge for a team of 4-5 level 4 PCs. A level four character is gonna average we'll say a +4 (average 12 wis as few people dump it, poor save is equal to half level so +2 at 4th) will. Since the DC is only 16, most players have about a 60% failure rate, not considering things like a cloak of resistance, good save being higher, class features, feats or racial bonuses.

60% is average, but that's considering pretty minimal investment. If there are multiple harpies, CR of an encounter is considered to go up by 2 if there are 2 harpies, so 6. A sixth level PC would have a save 1 or more higher than the average, lowering that percentage by 5%.

It is highly unlikely an entire party would all have a minimum will save, so between a low overall DC for the ability and the fact each harpy can use it once. If any of the players succeed, they can hold their friends back, as the song doesn't make them hostile, they would likely not resist their allies. More harpy chances means needing more harpies, which means higher CR and thus should mean higher party level to be dealing with the problem, and thus the higher chance that the player will succeed.

There is the minimal chance that somehow everyone failed the save, though the odds make that more of a fun story than a vengeful TPK. "How did everyone roll less than five?"

Liberty's Edge

Elves and half elves get a +2 (while it is not spelled as an enchantment effect, it is a mind affecting effect).
At level 4 you generally have a +1 cloak.
Protection from evil (and if you know that you are going against Harpies buying a scroll of magic circle against evil is a good investment).
Silence.
Stuffing your ears with cotton.
Bard countersong.

There are several counters, but unprepared people is relatively easy to fascinate and kill.


Harpies are far from the only thing that can cause a TPK.

Walking into a room full of mummies is far worse.


You can always "restart" when you kill your party and it'd be a lesson to not walk up a treehouse where Harpies throw adventurers off. The party has to be prepared for the encounter because kicking down doors and charging in can only work for so long. Maybe have an NPC warn the party or advise against a suicidal approach.

As for harpies not abusing their powers, maybe they're too scared to fly out of their home where they're vulnerable to sleep spells or ranged attacks. A witch with the slumber hex can send a harpy down the 180ft to her death.

The party should know how to deal with harpies. The "intelligent" character in the party could research harpies and prepare for the encounter with ear plugs/wax or get magic items that will help like rings of feather fall or cloaks of resistance. Casters can fly on their own after a while and are not at risk of falling to their deaths during a harpy encounter.

Grand Lodge

The party we had last night was a Level 7 Rogue, Level 7 Barbarian, and Level 6 Zen Archer Monk. Unfortunately, due to life, our Level 7 Bard and Level 8 Fighter could not be there. I guess it was just a matter of being short those two characters, because I think the Bard was prepared (he's countered some charm spells before). Also, maybe I should have cut the number of harpies down with the reduced party size. Thank you for all those good points. The party does need to learn to be prepared as it actually cost them two characters in their last mission that ended up being a failure.


Yes, when you have an encounter built for a party, and more then one player doesn't show, you should always tone down the encounter. Remember that most power comes from action economy, when your party loses such a large amount of their already (most likely) reduced action economy that quickly escalates a battle to much more dangerous rates.

I.e. a party of 4 level 5, medium armored, decent built fighters, could easily wipe out a 20 man party of melee kobolds with 2 fighter levels, but remove one or two of those fighters, and the odds actually shift quite a lot.


Also, basically that's what sirens do. They sit on a rock and sing/beg people to jump off their ship and drown. It's an extremely effective tactic which would make perfect sense for the harpies to use, so asking why they don't always do so is a bit of an odd question to me. They should always do so, and have no reason not to unless they expect to be dropped from the sky by magic or nets. In fact, if they had any way to do so I'd be surprised if a group of harpy hadn't built their nest in a place where anyone approaching without wings would have to figure out how to cross the gap, and then use their songs to protect themselves without leaving the nest at all. Even with an int of 7, they can pass for human and clearly think in terms of society and benefit. This to me says they could fairly easily modify the treehouse for that exact purpose, removing sections of floor as death pits and perhaps even hiding the alterations to make it that much easier to coax the barely conscious victims to walk across the trapped space.


Zagig wrote:
... harpy's captivating song power...

it IS a powerful ability which is why it comes with significant strings attached. That makes it circumstantial and saying it's powerful under those circumstances is redundant. Expanding that without noting the limitations is generally unfair.

Sovereign Court

Kinda want to see Tucker's KoboldsHarpies now.

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