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A very good example of a high charisma charachter absolutely not being the leader would be Elan, from Order of The Stick. Hes far more charismatic then Roy, by a mile. (Id estimate 3-5 points) but hes not the leader because despite being able to inspire people...he wouldnt know what to do with followers if he had them. Also he doesnt want the responsibility.
Dude, OOTS is a comic strip and is not to be taken seriously. The paladin/monk character in there has ZERO charisma. Elan has about a 12 Charisma. He is likeable but not a leader. He would have an 18 Comeliness score based upon D&D 1E Unearthed Arcana rules for any dinosaurs like me that still remember it
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No way. Poison use on anything above vermin level is completely dishonorable.Pretty much this. There's lots of uses for poisons that aren't dishonorable.
Heck, from a Toxicologist's point of view, there's plenty of things that *are* poisons that are used all the time by paladins.
Whoa now, hang on. Would you be okay with a paladin using a Cloud Kill scroll to clear out a rat infection?
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a corrosive sword does acid damage. It is pretty easy to use, and you don't have to carry anything bulky.We also aren't told that acid flasks and corrosive weapons are evil or dishonorable. Yet historically acid has repeatedly been used by evil groups in very dishonorable ways. Yet most players don't seeem to have an issue with using those or consider them dishonorable in Golarion.That's because acid is used so infrequently and it is so weak an option compared to normal weapons that it is not an issue. Besides trolls or breaking locks I can't think of any instance where I used acid.
Besides I sell acid for commercial applications like removing rust and cleaning out drains. There are some big issues with the acid that make it unsuitable for adventuring.
1) Carrying and storage. Acid as described in PF would break easily just during transportation. When we transport it we have to pack it in sawdust so if the case breaks during transportation the acid is soaked up and does not damage other packages.
2) Its heavy and not very aerodynamic to throw quart sized bottles of this stuff very far.
3) The acid is water based so the more moisture it has the more damage it does. Throwing water on it makes it more potent. The best thing to do is rub dirt on effected area to scrape it off.
4) Depending on the type and potency of the acid it won't effect alot of standard metals in a noticeable way in a six second round associated with Pathfider. If it can then the Gods help you if it breaks while you are carrying it. Since there are no such thing as packing peanuts in PF you are in big trouble.
Yeah and its a magical weapon. What part about magical do you not get? Is the alchemist making magical flasks that only break when she tells them to? No. How do I know that? Because they have specifically said the alchemist is a non magical class that does not cast spells
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No, how about if you WANT paladins to use poison adjust it for your campaign. I like the thought of a warrior with Judeo-Christian values that fights for a just cause. If you don't enjoy that idea than play something else. Do not play a paladin.If you don't want paladins to use poison then you adjust it for your campaign, the same way someone might if they want paladins of different alignments.
Well, some of us have been adjusting it for oh, forty years or so. As a side note -- not everyone is comfortable or even wants the Judeo-Christian values (or baggage if you are less charitable) and would like to see that removed from the paladin so as to create a class that can be enjoyed by everyone.
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No way. Poison use on anything above vermin level is completely dishonorable.Just because it is legal in a society does not mean it is ok for a paladin.Facts not in evidence: poisons are not evil. In the playtest, they are NOT automatically dishonorable. So your assertion is incorrect as the new game has it.Pretty much this. There's lots of uses for poisons that aren't dishonorable.
Heck, from a Toxicologist's point of view, there's plenty of things that *are* poisons that are used all the time by paladins.
Good to know that your paladin can't use Holy Water on the undead, as it's highly toxic to them.
After all, such a poisonous use is in no way honorable.
(I also like how you moved the goal posts from "no use is honorable, ever" to "no use above a vermin level")
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Has to be said, but part of why dishonor is attached to poison historically was who was doing the poisoning, which was primarily women (wives in particular) and servants. Swords are expensive. So is armor. But quite a few poisons were available in every household, and were notoriously hard to detect after the fact.
But everyone has access to weapons in Golarian. Even Goblins. Meanwhile poisons are MUCH more expensive there than on earth, as well far less effective. If anything, I would surmise that poison is considered the posh option, as only people who can afford to be relatively ineffective would dream of using them. Like, say, a paladin wanting to prove a point or trying very hard not to kill their target.
No, its because you cannot know who poisoned you and often innocents could be killed by poison use. There was a case in the HBO series Rome where a servant girl died of poison because she sampled a meal meant for the matron of the house after the assassin poisoned it.
If you have a beef with someone that cannot be remedied anyway short of death then the honorable thing to do is fight them in the open and be done with it. If everyone just poisons each other you have chaos and chaos in a society cannot be tolerated| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I hope the paladin isn't taking too many notes from Lancelot and Arthur. They are not exactly paragons of virtue as far as I can remember. Galahad, sure, and the other two are Dragonlance characters if I recall correctly so they have an advantage of being written after the codes were put in the game material.
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I hope the paladin isn't taking too many notes from Lancelot and Arthur. They are not exactly paragons of virtue as far as I can remember.
LOL Yep, Lancelot, accused of treason for both his affair with Guinevere and for the homicide of his fellow knights during his escape from the court... SUPER honorable... Nothing says 'paladin' like several counts of TREASON... :P
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Well, some of us have been adjusting it for oh, forty years or so. As a side note -- not everyone is comfortable or even wants the Judeo-Christian values (or baggage if you are less charitable) and would like to see that removed from the paladin so as to create a class that can be enjoyed by everyone.No, how about if you WANT paladins to use poison adjust it for your campaign. I like the thought of a warrior with Judeo-Christian values that fights for a just cause. If you don't enjoy that idea than play something else. Do not play a paladin.If you don't want paladins to use poison then you adjust it for your campaign, the same way someone might if they want paladins of different alignments.
Then don't call it a paladin as that is strictly a Judeo-Christian conception as far as morals on honorable conduct and combat are concerned and especially with a connection to a deity which Paizo keeps intact. I would not ask for a samurai to be conceptualized without medieval Japanese codes of belief and conduct attached to it.
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Then don't call it a paladin as that is strictly a Judeo-Christian conception as far as morals on honorable conduct and combat are concerned and especially with a connection to a deity which Paizo keeps intact. I would not ask for a samurai to be conceptualized without medieval Japanese codes of belief and conduct attached to it.Well, some of us have been adjusting it for oh, forty years or so. As a side note -- not everyone is comfortable or even wants the Judeo-Christian values (or baggage if you are less charitable) and would like to see that removed from the paladin so as to create a class that can be enjoyed by everyone.No, how about if you WANT paladins to use poison adjust it for your campaign. I like the thought of a warrior with Judeo-Christian values that fights for a just cause. If you don't enjoy that idea than play something else. Do not play a paladin.If you don't want paladins to use poison then you adjust it for your campaign, the same way someone might if they want paladins of different alignments.
As far as you are concerned. However, there are those of us that can divorce the class from the usual ideas such as shining knights and J-C beliefs. There is no One True Way, not even for the paladin.
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As far as you are concerned. However, there are those of us that can divorce the class from the usual ideas such as shining knights and J-C beliefs. There is no One True Way, not even for the paladin.Then don't call it a paladin as that is strictly a Judeo-Christian conception as far as morals on honorable conduct and combat are concerned and especially with a connection to a deity which Paizo keeps intact. I would not ask for a samurai to be conceptualized without medieval Japanese codes of belief and conduct attached to it.Well, some of us have been adjusting it for oh, forty years or so. As a side note -- not everyone is comfortable or even wants the Judeo-Christian values (or baggage if you are less charitable) and would like to see that removed from the paladin so as to create a class that can be enjoyed by everyone.No, how about if you WANT paladins to use poison adjust it for your campaign. I like the thought of a warrior with Judeo-Christian values that fights for a just cause. If you don't enjoy that idea than play something else. Do not play a paladin.If you don't want paladins to use poison then you adjust it for your campaign, the same way someone might if they want paladins of different alignments.
Not true, paladins have to be LG & have to worship a deity. They can not function on concepts such as the DAO or the Force. They are not Jedi/Sith
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True Paladins all realised they could do more good with magic and retrained as sorcerers.
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Not true, paladins have to be LG & have to worship a deity. They can not function on concepts such as the DAO or the Force. They are not Jedi/SithAs far as you are concerned. However, there are those of us that can divorce the class from the usual ideas such as shining knights and J-C beliefs. There is no One True Way, not even for the paladin.Then don't call it a paladin as that is strictly a Judeo-Christian conception as far as morals on honorable conduct and combat are concerned and especially with a connection to a deity which Paizo keeps intact. I would not ask for a samurai to be conceptualized without medieval Japanese codes of belief and conduct attached to it.Well, some of us have been adjusting it for oh, forty years or so. As a side note -- not everyone is comfortable or even wants the Judeo-Christian values (or baggage if you are less charitable) and would like to see that removed from the paladin so as to create a class that can be enjoyed by everyone.No, how about if you WANT paladins to use poison adjust it for your campaign. I like the thought of a warrior with Judeo-Christian values that fights for a just cause. If you don't enjoy that idea than play something else. Do not play a paladin.If you don't want paladins to use poison then you adjust it for your campaign, the same way someone might if they want paladins of different alignments.
Paladins are not required to worship a deity although many of them do.
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Paladins are not required to worship a deity although many of them do.Not true, paladins have to be LG & have to worship a deity. They can not function on concepts such as the DAO or the Force. They are not Jedi/SithAs far as you are concerned. However, there are those of us that can divorce the class from the usual ideas such as shining knights and J-C beliefs. There is no One True Way, not even for the paladin.Then don't call it a paladin as that is strictly a Judeo-Christian conception as far as morals on honorable conduct and combat are concerned and especially with a connection to a deity which Paizo keeps intact. I would not ask for a samurai to be conceptualized without medieval Japanese codes of belief and conduct attached to it.Well, some of us have been adjusting it for oh, forty years or so. As a side note -- not everyone is comfortable or even wants the Judeo-Christian values (or baggage if you are less charitable) and would like to see that removed from the paladin so as to create a class that can be enjoyed by everyone.No, how about if you WANT paladins to use poison adjust it for your campaign. I like the thought of a warrior with Judeo-Christian values that fights for a just cause. If you don't enjoy that idea than play something else. Do not play a paladin.If you don't want paladins to use poison then you adjust it for your campaign, the same way someone might if they want paladins of different alignments.
You are wrong. To quote the Paladin blog "Paladins are divine champions of a deity. You must be lawful good and worship a deity that allows lawful good clerics". Its ok knightnday. You can admit you are wrong. :)
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You are wrong. To quote the Paladin blog "Paladins are divine champions of a deity. You must be lawful good and worship a deity that allows lawful good clerics". Its ok knightnday. You can admit you are wrong. :)
He was right in PF1, where Paladins were in fact not required to have a deity. They appear to be changing that in at least the playtest version of PF2. We'll see if Paladins require deities or not in the final version.
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He was right in PF1, where Paladins were in fact not required to have a deity. They appear to be changing that in at least the playtest version of PF2. We'll see if Paladins require deities or not in the final version.You are wrong. To quote the Paladin blog "Paladins are divine champions of a deity. You must be lawful good and worship a deity that allows lawful good clerics". Its ok knightnday. You can admit you are wrong. :)
Nice try DM. We are talking about paladins here in PF2. In fact, until 3E came out every paladin in any edition of D&D before and since has had to worship a deity. Its a big part of the concept. Paladins are not abstract Jedi. They worship a deity of law and order. They have to follow a deity's will. How can you fall and lose your powers if no deity grants you powers? Paladins are not sorcerers.
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You are wrong. To quote the Paladin blog "Paladins are divine champions of a deity. You must be lawful good and worship a deity that allows lawful good clerics". Its ok knightnday. You can admit you are wrong. :)
When and if the play test and 2.0 pathfinder rules are complete and finalized then yes, I would be wrong. As it stands currently, I am not.
Regardless, it does not require a Judeo-Christian god. I have a pretty good idea that we are going to see a large argument over the idea of honor as well, given that term and murder aren't exactly agreed on as far as what we are meaning.
It appears that we'll have the same sort of arguments over poison/toxins as well. Can a paladin drink alcohol? Can they buy a round for the bar? What medicines can they use and not use -- in many cases it is a matter of dose and application to separate poisons and medicine.
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Nice try DM. We are talking about paladins here in PF2. In fact, until 3E came out every paladin in any edition of D&D before and since has had to worship a deity. Its a big part of the concept. Paladins are not abstract Jedi. They worship a deity of law and order. They have to follow a deity's will. How can you fall and lose your powers if no deity grants you powers? Paladins are not sorcerers.
I've said all I have to say on the main debate, I was just clarifying what was true in what edition of Pathfinder.
I will note that if a Druid can get their power from nature itself, a Paladin getting them from the pure forces of Law and Good themselves seems pretty plausible. In which case you'd lose your powers for violating the very concepts that grant them.
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If you're going to argue that the Paladin stems from Judeo-Christian values/ideals, you still need to explain how literally shoving a longsword up a living creature's backside and out his gut is honorable, but using poison is not. AND you have to do it using scripture of all things.
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To be fair, you can absolutely find rules that tell you to kill people in various Abrahamic sources, but I don't think following them is going to get you an LG character.
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Nice try DM. We are talking about paladins here in PF2. In fact, until 3E came out every paladin in any edition of D&D before and since has had to worship a deity. Its a big part of the concept. Paladins are not abstract Jedi. They worship a deity of law and order. They have to follow a deity's will. How can you fall and lose your powers if no deity grants you powers? Paladins are not sorcerers.I've said all I have to say on the main debate, I was just clarifying what was true in what edition of Pathfinder.
I will note that if a Druid can get their power from nature itself, a Paladin getting them from the pure forces of Law and Good themselves seems pretty plausible. In which case you'd lose your powers for violating the very concepts that grant them.
Nope, paladins are not druids. Nice try though. The whole concept of a paladin is a champion of a deity. Just like the concept of a druid is a steward of the wild and nature. If you strip away the core concept of a what a class is then it ceases to be a class.
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To be fair, you can absolutely find rules that tell you to kill people in various Abrahamic sources, but I don't think following them is going to get you an LG character.Too be fair, humans have evolved over millennia and all religions either adapt or fall by the wayside. I am not saying that Abrahamic religions are perfect. They are not. However, the concept of fighting fairly, keeping your word even if it causes you to suffer a disadvantage, respect for women, defending the weak and helpless are all Abrahamic ideals. Even if people fail to live up to them they are there. That is the reason for the paladin. To give people that shining example to follow. Not be some overpowered cheese character using the most despicable, shady tricks possible to win at any costs.
Way to fumble an iconic class Paizo. Way to fumble big time
There is a lot to unpack there, religon-wise. Perhaps it would be better to say that the paladin should be based around the tenets of the Golarion gods rather than those from our world. That might help keep things a bit less provocative as well as allow us to examine and expand the religions of the game world as well as what examples of what their ideal champions would be.
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If you're going to argue that the Paladin stems from Judeo-Christian values/ideals, you still need to explain how literally shoving a longsword up a living creature's backside and out his gut is honorable, but using poison is not. AND you have to do it using scripture of all things.
When have I ever advocated paladins backstabbing people as honorable combat? I never said any such thing. I don't think a paladin should have any levels of rogue unless he is repentant or on a batman theme. Even on a batman theme he should take monk as that makes sense. Paladins wouldn't take advantage of foes and stab them at a weak spot. They don't value "Sweep the leg. No Mercy" Cobra Kai school of thought
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There is a lot to unpack there, religon-wise. Perhaps it would be better to say that the paladin should be based around the tenets of the Golarion gods rather than those from our world. That might help keep things a bit less provocative as well as allow us to examine and expand the religions of the game world as well as what examples of what their ideal champions would be.To be fair, you can absolutely find rules that tell you to kill people in various Abrahamic sources, but I don't think following them is going to get you an LG character.Too be fair, humans have evolved over millennia and all religions either adapt or fall by the wayside. I am not saying that Abrahamic religions are perfect. They are not. However, the concept of fighting fairly, keeping your word even if it causes you to suffer a disadvantage, respect for women, defending the weak and helpless are all Abrahamic ideals. Even if people fail to live up to them they are there. That is the reason for the paladin. To give people that shining example to follow. Not be some overpowered cheese character using the most despicable, shady tricks possible to win at any costs.
Way to fumble an iconic class Paizo. Way to fumble big time
That's fair knightnday. I am willing to meet you half way as there are many religions around the world that share Abrahamic traditions of fair play, not lying, cheating, stealing, charity, etc.
I think that Paizo is muddying the waters with an iconic class because their flavor of the year class, the alchemist uses poisons so they are trying to avoid interparty conflict by loosening the rules. I think that is a mistake. It would be just as big of a mistake if they watered down a samurai till the only thing that made the class a samurai was the katana and armor (oyori maybe. Please forgive not well versed in samurai gear) Don't dumb down the paladin. Its fun to play a challenging character with a code sometimes instead of just another murder hobo that does not have to conform to anyone else's rules. If you want to play that character there are many classes out there. Don't weaken the class that I love because it has restrictions. That is a great deal of its appeal
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I hope the choke-hold on the paragon of good is loosened up even more, so that Good may be brought forth to all who wish to partake, and not the rareified few of a specialized faith path.
That being said, if they continued watering down other restrictions without loosening said choke-hold, it would be most excellent for the evolution of the holy warrior.
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If you're going to argue that the Paladin stems from Judeo-Christian values/ideals, you still need to explain how literally shoving a longsword up a living creature's backside and out his gut is honorable, but using poison is not. AND you have to do it using scripture of all things.When have I ever advocated paladins backstabbing people as honorable combat? I never said any such thing. I don't think a paladin should have any levels of rogue unless he is repentant or on a batman theme. Even on a batman theme he should take monk as that makes sense. Paladins wouldn't take advantage of foes and stab them at a weak spot. They don't value "Sweep the leg. No Mercy" Cobra Kai school of thought
Oh, okay. Well, if facing rules matter, then the Paladin runs his opponent through the chest, slicing ribs and puncturing a lung, causing his opponent to slowly drown in his own blood.
Apparently still very honorable. Remember, EVERY spot is a weak spot. It just depends on how hard you hit.