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Have a quick question regarding Brawler Archetypes:
Can you take Snakebite Striker and Strangler together? They both alter class skills, but one simply adds to it and the other changes skills not affected by the other change.
Curious how this works RAW versus "RAI" - did they mean to mess up the overlap by giving away a free class skill? Or does this not count as a class feature?
In any event strangler / steal breaker (edit, just read the archetype and it too alters skills, though it is not on the master list as doing so) or strangler / shield champion would be viable per RAW, right?
meh, seems RAW is no go on the strangler snakebite striker... thanks anyways... http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9thg
"Free skill keeps you from stacking the archetype." Seems really silly. Definitely not something I'm going to use in houserules. (I mean, if it made you pick or chose which one to get rid of, ie. actually replaced class skills, that would be completely different, imho).
Not just "free skill keeps you from stacking the archetype"--"free skill that you already get from the other archetype keeps you from stacking the archetype". What a drag.
I've read and re-read everything several times and I'm putting this out there.
Does this also mean that you can't Stack Wild Child with Strangler?
It would seem that you can't, even though there is zero overlap between the archetypes. Sure they both add a skill but they add different skills.
It seems odd that if an archetype adds a skill (not replaces or removes) that it completely locks you out of other archetypes that modify skills in any way. Particularly when other class features are more flexible.
For example, from the same FAQ
[it’s OK to take] ..two fighter archetypes that replace the weapon training gained at different levels (sometimes referred to as “weapon training I, II, III, or IV”) even though those all fall under the class feature weapon training.
Then be a Snakebite Striker. I don't see the appeal of Strangler.
Both give sneak attack and when based around a grappling build that sneak attack damage will outstrip a normal rogue. What's more it allows you to grapple while still threatening the area around you which could be quite devastating with something like kraken style. Since you're always considered to be flanking anyone you grapple.
Besides at higher levels it gives you a save or die ability with a save based on str or dex, one of which should be your primary stat.
I'm not sure why it would be unappealing, unless you were taking it and for some reason NOT planning on grappling opponents.
the official answer is clear, no you can't stack them.
I'll tell you why Strangler isn't for me.
Stranglers lose the Unarmed Strike Ability, which means that they don't get Improved Unarmed Strike, and you need that for Improved Grapple.
Stranglers get Sneak Attack, but only when prosecuting a Grapple. But neither the Grappled nor Pinned conditions award you Sneak Attack Damage normally. Can Stranglers even do Sneak Attack Damage just for that, and if they can, what if they also take levels in Ninja or Rogue? Do they get all their SAD or just their Strangler SAD?
Personally, Sneak Attack is far from my preferred way to prosecute a Grapple, and prosecuting a Grapple is my least favored way to lock in Sneak Attack Damage. Snakebite Strikers get that Snake Feint ability, which makes it easier to for them to get SAD by Feinting. Bounty Hunter Slayers get an ability like Quick Dirty Tricks, which you can use to Blind your opponents. Take 3 levels in Bard with the Flame Dance Archetype, carry an Eversmoking Bottle, and you make all your opponents Blind, but you and your Allies can see just fine. Ninja Vanishing Trick makes you Invisible. Take a level in Arcanist and you get a 10' Teleport, perfect for Flanking.
If I were making a character that inflicted Damage with Grappling, I would get Constrict or wear Armor Spikes. I'd...
Fair enough, I was only thinking of it in terms of a recent build I made that used it and I was able to get around everything you talk about by multi-classing into rogue w/ the kidnapper archetype.
Stranglers do get to deal their sneak attack damage whenever they dmg or pin someone. looking at it, it's not clear to me if the "flanking" condition they get from this ability extends to sneak attack from other sources.
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I'll tell you why Strangler isn't for me.
Stranglers lose the Unarmed Strike Ability, which means that they don't get Improved Unarmed Strike, and you need that for Improved Grapple.
Stranglers get Sneak Attack, but only when prosecuting a Grapple. But neither the Grappled nor Pinned conditions award you Sneak Attack Damage normally. Can Stranglers even do Sneak Attack Damage just for that, and if they can, what if they also take levels in Ninja or Rogue? Do they get all their SAD or just their Strangler SAD?
Personally, Sneak Attack is far from my preferred way to prosecute a Grapple, and prosecuting a Grapple is my least favored way to lock in Sneak Attack Damage. Snakebite Strikers get that Snake Feint ability, which makes it easier to for them to get SAD by Feinting. Bounty Hunter Slayers get an ability like Quick Dirty Tricks, which you can use to Blind your opponents. Take 3 levels in Bard with the Flame Dance Archetype, carry an Eversmoking Bottle, and you make all your opponents Blind, but you and your Allies can see just fine. Ninja Vanishing Trick makes you Invisible. Take a level in Arcanist and you get a 10' Teleport, perfect for Flanking.
If I were making a character that inflicted Damage with Grappling, I would get Constrict or wear Armor Spikes. I'd...
Fair enough, I was only thinking of it in terms of a recent build I made that used it and I was able to get around everything you talk about by multi-classing into rogue w/ the kidnapper archetype.
Stranglers do get to deal their sneak attack damage whenever they dmg or pin someone. looking at it, it's not clear to me if the "flanking" condition they get from this ability extends to sneak attack from other sources.
It does not extend to other sources, it is only for the purposes of that ability.
It does not extend to other sources, it is only for the purposes of that ability.
I don't see the word only in the description. Hence why I'm unclear.
At 1st level, a strangler deals +1d6 sneak attack damage whenever she succeeds at a grapple check to damage or pin an opponent. The strangler is always considered flanking her target for the purpose of using this ability. This damage increases by +1d6 at 2nd, 8th and 15th levels.
and then for Sneak attack we have
The rogue’s attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.
There are some points which are unclear. If we assume that it only works with this ability, then why specify that you are flanking? Why specify that it is sneak attack damage and not precision damage? If the intention is that this damage does not include sneak attack from other sources it could read
"At 1st level, a strangler deals +1d6 precision damage whenever she succeeds at a grapple check to damage or pin an opponent. This damage increases by +1d6 at 2nd, 8th and 15th levels."
By including language that this is a sneak attack and not just precision damage. As well as specifying that you are considered flanking. This seems to indicate that not only would you get to add in sneak attack from other sources (provided they aren't situational sneak attack that doesn't apply in this situation), but that if you have other feats that trigger off of flanking they too would trigger from this ability.
The strangler is always considered flanking her target for the purpose of using this ability.
The default state is you are only flanking your target if you meet the usual flanking condition in the Combat chapter. This ability says "for the purpose of using this ability", you are considered flanking. It does not say you are considered flanking for any other purpose.
Ergo, you are not considered flanking for any other purpose for the same reason that Weapon Specialization (greatsword) doesn't cause your chakram to do more damage--namely, because the text doesn't say your chakram does more damage.
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Then be a Snakebite Striker. I don't see the appeal of Strangler.
2d6 sneak attack at 2nd level... only class that gets this... that I know of... apply sap adept and sap master and you get 4d6+4 sneak attack (nonlethal) while grappling for 2 levels... it has some appeal.
(ps. you dipped Tetori monk one level for the unarmed and improved grapple feats... so at 3rd level you are +2 BAB grappler with 4d6+4 extra damage every time you do so... or even teotri/black asp with poison on your unarmed strike weapons also...)
(ps. in reality you would have to take rogue/ninja/etc... levels to get "Sneak Attack" CF to +3d6 for Sap Master - then you could be doing 3d6+3, 5d6+5 when grappling, or 6d6+6 nonlethal and 10d6+10 nonlethal with the feats)
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The strangler is always considered flanking her target for the purpose of using this ability.The default state is you are only flanking your target if you meet the usual flanking condition in the Combat chapter. This ability says "for the purpose of using this ability", you are considered flanking. It does not say you are considered flanking for any other purpose.
Ergo, you are not considered flanking for any other purpose for the same reason that Weapon Specialization (greatsword) doesn't cause your chakram to do more damage--namely, because the text doesn't say your chakram does more damage.
Yeh, this is a stick in the "I'll SA him full with rogue SA and Strangler SA damage." You would need to move to pin them to get ALL your SA damage (deny dex to AC for Rogue). Alternately you could actually be flanking them (at higher level strangler) while grappling if someone else is near you.
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Then be a Snakebite Striker. I don't see the appeal of Strangler.Both give sneak attack ...
I would not say so. Snakebite Striker- yes, gives you the Sneak Attack class feature; Strangler just quantifies the damage type that it's doing while in a grapple.
Before you get your chausses in the bunch- Strangler may have the "sneak attack" wording in the Strangle CF, whereas the Striker actually has "Sneak Attack +Xd6".
Think of the Strangler punching someone at the base of their skull- if the enemy you're grappling is immune to precision/sneak attack- then punching them in the back of the skull won't do much.
Sneak Attack specifies- flatfooted, denied their dexterity, or flanks; Strangler just says "while grappling"
Look at Boar Style. it deals +2d6 damage, untyped, after consecutive hits.
Methinks that the Strangle ability would have been worded as "precision" damage, like the Swashbuckler's Precise Strike ability to avoid confusion. My two cents, take the information as you may.
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Then be a Snakebite Striker. I don't see the appeal of Strangler.Both give sneak attack ...
I would not say so. Snakebite Striker- yes, gives you the Sneak Attack class feature; Strangler just quantifies the damage type that it's doing while in a grapple.
Before you get your chausses in the bunch- Strangler may have the "sneak attack" wording in the Strangle CF, whereas the Striker actually has "Sneak Attack +Xd6".
Think of the Strangler punching someone at the base of their skull- if the enemy you're grappling is immune to precision/sneak attack- then punching them in the back of the skull won't do much.
Sneak Attack specifies- flatfooted, denied their dexterity, or flanks; Strangler just says "while grappling"Look at Boar Style. it deals +2d6 damage, untyped, after consecutive hits.
Methinks that the Strangle ability would have been worded as "precision" damage, like the Swashbuckler's Precise Strike ability to avoid confusion. My two cents, take the information as you may.
Naw, It is called "Strangle" in the CF, but it is +1d6 SA damage just like any other SA bonus. It is limited in the Strangle CF description to only applying to grappling, and also adds in a bonus flanking. It varies from SA CF ability, but does do the same type of damage (precision damage based on the weapon). To you argument: they could have said "+1d6 untyped precision" damage instead of "+1d6 sneak attack" damage, thus it behaves just like it says it does, just like sneak attack damage.
However: A Strangler does not have "Sneak Attack +1d6" They have "Strangle +1d6 Sneak Attack damage"... so they don't qualify for Sap Adept and Sap Master (because that would require the "this qualifies them for feats that require SA" in the wording - which isn't there, so can't be "assumed in")