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My question: Does a +1 Arrow fired from a +1 Evil-Outsider-Bane Bow at an evil outsider bypass DR/Silver or Cold Iron?
Some relevant sources:
Magic Ranged Weapons and Ammunition: When a ranged weapon shares its enhancement bonus with its ammunition, does this count as “true” enhancement bonus or more like a temporary bonus like greater magic weapon? In other words, does the shared enhancement bonus allow the arrow to bypass damage reduction as if it was cold iron, silver, adamantine, and aligned?
No, other than the ways indicated in the Core Rulebook (if the ranged weapon is at least +1, they count as magic, and if the ranged weapon is aligned they count as that alignment as well) the enhancement bonus granted to ammunition from the ranged weapon doesn’t help them overcome the other types of damage reduction. Archers and other such characters can buy various sorts of ammunition or ammunition with a high enhancement bonus to overcome the various types of damage reduction.
source: link
01–12 01–08 01–04 Bane(2) +1 bonus
...snip...
(2) Bows, crossbows, and slings crafted with this ability bestow this power upon their ammunition.
source (which is much more readable): link
So my question, I suppose, depends on the answer to this question:
When a Bane bow is fired, is the BOW getting the benefit of Bane, or is the ARROW getting the benefit of Bane?
Because if the BOW gets it, it then passes on its hit/damage, but the ammunition does not count as +3 for DR purposes. If the ARROW gets it, then the +1 the arrow has and the +2 from Bane make the ARROW a +3 arrow for all purposes, including DR.
I appreciate your responses!
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+1 Flaming Bane arrow, counts as +3 vs Evil Outsiders and overcomes DR/cold iron,silver.Right. What if it's a +1 arrow fired from a bane bow?
Sorry, I meant "+1 Bane arrow, counts as +3 vs Evil Outsiders and overcomes DR/cold iron,silver." I don't know why I read Flaming in the original post.
The main point is that the arrow will itself need to be magical in some capacity to overcome DR.
So if you have a +1 bane bow and fire an arrow it wont bypass DR. If you fire a +1 bane bow with a +1 arrow the arrow effectively becomes +3 against the target of bane and would bypass DR as appropriate for a +3 weapon.
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The main point is that the arrow will itself need to be magical in some capacity to overcome DR.
So if you have a +1 bane bow and fire an arrow it wont bypass DR. If you fire a +1 bane bow with a +1 arrow the arrow effectively becomes +3 against the target of bane and would bypass DR as appropriate for a +3 weapon.
Right. A normal arrow fired from a +1 bane bow lands with +3 to attack/damage, but it is not +3 for DR purposes, because the arrow itself is only +2 (from bane). You've got to have at least +1 on the arrow itself to get by any DR besides DR/Magic.
Simplify the question--does a mundane arrow fired from a +3 bow bypass DR/silver?
No, per the FAQ. A mundane arrow fired from a +3 bow bypasses DR/magic and adds +3 to attack and damage rolls, but it does not bypass things that only a +3 weapon would bypass.
Having a +1 evil outsider bane bow simply makes the bow +3 against evil outsiders and adds some damage. It doesn't change the fact that the arrow hitting the target is not a +3 arrow.
Using a +1 arrow does even less*--the arrow already bypasses DR/magic and gets +3 to attack and damage rolls, so the +1 on the arrow is utterly wasted.
If you want to bypass DR/silver, use silver arrows.
*as in "adds even less to what you're doing over a mundane arrow", not "less than a mundane arrow"--sorry, that was confusing -_-
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Simplify the question--does a mundane arrow fired from a +3 bow bypass DR/silver?
No, per the FAQ. A mundane arrow fired from a +3 bow bypasses DR/magic and adds +3 to attack and damage rolls, but it does not bypass things that only a +3 weapon would bypass.
Having a +1 evil outsider bane bow simply makes the bow +3 against evil outsiders and adds some damage. It doesn't change the fact that the arrow hitting the target is not a +3 arrow.
Using a +1 arrow does even less*--the arrow already bypasses DR/magic and gets +3 to attack and damage rolls, so the +1 on the arrow is utterly wasted.
If you want to bypass DR/silver, use silver arrows.
*as in "adds even less to what you're doing over a mundane arrow", not "less than a mundane arrow"--sorry, that was confusing -_-
This is at the crux of my question. Simplifying the question muddies the waters. I'm specifically NOT asking about a +3 bow or a +1 bane bow alone.
See, bane says it passes the ability, NOT the enhancement bonus. Which means when it hits, the arrow is bane. Bane increases your actual enhancement bonus by +2.
Thus, I'm of the opinion that a +3 arrow fired from a bane bow should bypass alignment DR.
Projectile weapons with this ability bestow this power upon their ammunition.
Hmm. Good enough for me. I reverse my stance.
The main point is that the arrow will itself need to be magical in some capacity to overcome DR.
So if you have a +1 bane bow and fire an arrow it wont bypass DR. If you fire a +1 bane bow with a +1 arrow the arrow effectively becomes +3 against the target of bane and would bypass DR as appropriate for a +3 weapon.
That isn't true at all. An arrow is considered a +1 for all purposes if it's fired from a bow with at least a +1.
"if the ranged weapon is at least +1, they count as magic"
Sorry, I should have said it wont bypass any DR except DR/magic.
A non-magical arrow fired from a +1 bow doesn't generally count as a +1 arrow, but does get a +1 bonus to attack and damage and will bypass DR/magic per the FAQ referenced above.
It does not generally count as a +1 arrow though, and if you could somehow have a bane arrow (no +1) and fire it from a +1 bow, the effective enhancement bonus would only be +2, not +3 and wouldn't bypass anything by DR/magic.
A mundane arrow fired from a +x bane bow would be considered a +1 bane weapon for the purposes of DR.
You can't have a special ability without a +1 so it must be at least a +1 to have bane and we know that an arrow fired from a magic bow is considered magic for the purposes of DR. Bane stacks with existing enhancement bonuses for all purposes so you would end up with an effective +3 for the purposes of DR.
No it wouldn't. It's an arrow that gets +1 bonus to attack and damage, bypasses DR/magic, and have the bane quality. But it wouldn't effectively be a +3 arrow, unless the arrow itself had a +1. That's the whole point of the of FAQ quoted above. Otherwise a +3 bow firing a mundane arrow would bypass DR/cold iron or silver, but it doesn't. The only reason the non-magical arrow fired from the magical bow bypasses DR at all is because it explicitly says it does.
The FAQ above literally tells us that the +1 bow does not make the ammunition that it fires a +1 arrow.
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Oooh, that's true. I'm flip-flopping again.
/I should go into politics at this rate
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A weapon with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus
Unless you have a rule to say otherwise, a weapon (or piece of ammunition) needs to have at least a +1 to have a special ability added.
Following your interpretation, then no special ability can be ever bestowed on mundane arrows by magic bow: since the arrow has no enhancement bonus, no special ability can be applied.
Of course that rule applies to special properties applied by (permanent or temporary) weapon enhancements, not to properties bestowed to ammunition by the weapon used to launch them.
A mundane arrow shot from a +1 bow is still a mundane arrow, but deals also +1 damage and overcomes DR/magic.
A mundane arrow shot from a +1 Bane bow is still a mundane arrow, but deals also +1 damage, overcomes DR/magic, and counts its enhancement bonus (+0) as 2 higher vs the target of Bane (+ other Bane stuff), hence counting as a +2 (Bane) arrow.
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"Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction"
"Damage Reduction may be overcome by special materials, magic weapons (any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus, not counting the enhancement from masterwork quality), certain types of weapons (such as slashing or bludgeoning), and weapons imbued with an alignment."
An arrow fired from a +x bow is treated as a magic weapon and a magic weapon is defined as having a +1 enhancement bonus. Bane would stack with this bonus and thus you would end up with a +3 even with mundane ammunition.
Gallant, you are absolutely right. The arrow will land with +3 damage, and it will be fired with +3 to hit.
But none of that matters when you're dealing with DR, because the conferred bonus doesn't help you get through DR.
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Based on what? The arrow gets a +1 for the purposes of DR from the bow's +x and +2 from bane; 1+2=3. I don't see how to get any other answer without ignoring the text."Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction"
"Damage Reduction may be overcome by special materials, magic weapons (any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus, not counting the enhancement from masterwork quality), certain types of weapons (such as slashing or bludgeoning), and weapons imbued with an alignment."
An arrow fired from a +x bow is treated as a magic weapon and a magic weapon is defined as having a +1 enhancement bonus. Bane would stack with this bonus and thus you would end up with a +3 even with mundane ammunition.
Gallant, you are absolutely right. The arrow will land with +3 damage, and it will be fired with +3 to hit.
But none of that matters when you're dealing with DR, because the conferred bonus doesn't help you get through DR.
Based on the FAQ quoted and linked above.
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here. We clearly read the text differently.
Right. And the arrow is not a magic weapon or magical ammunition. It just so happens to gain some benefits because of the above FAQ.
Before this FAQ was written, I would have agreed with you. Before this FAQ that's exactly how I thought everything worked. This FAQ basically says "No, it doesn't actually work that way, even though it's pretty close".
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It's not about reading it differently, you are just missing the that the term "magic weapon" is defined as having at least a +1 enhancement bonus. If something counts as a magic weapon for DR it counts a having a +1 enhancement bonus for DR, this would stack with bane. Nothing in the FAQ refutes this. "other than the ways indicated in the Core Rulebook" is an important phrase to note; ammunition counting as magic is an exception to the FAQ so the enhancement bonus applies.
Oh, I understand your reasoning. I simply disagree.
The fact that an attack bypasses DR/Magic does not imply that it has a +1 enhancement bonus. A level 1 kineticist throwing a physical blast bypasses DR/Magic. They don't have enhancement bonuses.
It's a logical fallacy that since a -> b, b proves a. In this case, a is "enhancement bonus ≥ +1" and b is "counts as magical for the purposes of DR."
One causes the other, but the reverse is not necessarily true.
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It's not about reading it differently, you are just missing the that the term "magic weapon" is defined as having at least a +1 enhancement bonus. If something counts as a magic weapon for DR it counts a having a +1 enhancement bonus for DR, this would stack with bane. Nothing in the FAQ refutes this. "other than the ways indicated in the Core Rulebook" is an important phrase to note; ammunition counting as magic is an exception to the FAQ so the enhancement bonus applies.Oh, I understand your reasoning. I simply disagree.
The fact that an attack bypasses DR/Magic does not imply that it has a +1 enhancement bonus. A level 1 kineticist throwing a physical blast bypasses DR/Magic. They don't have enhancement bonuses.
It's a logical fallacy that since a -> b, b proves a. In this case, a is "enhancement bonus ≥ +1" and b is "counts as magical for the purposes of DR."
One causes the other, but the reverse is not necessarily true.
There is a difference between "treated as magic" and "treated as a magic weapon". Unless you have a definition from the rules of "magic weapon" that contradicts the one I quoted, a magic weapon has an enhancement bonus of at least +1.
If you say so. I think I'm done here.
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It is important to say that the confusion stems from the footnote at the bottom of the magic weapon abilities table. Adding 2d6 to arrow damage is a big thing and probably why the footnote was added (yes that's supposition). Still the description states it is an enhancement bonus, and that is targeted by the FAQ.
For 7gp you can ignore the tempest in a teapot by using cold iron arrows with silver weapon blanch. Do it.
Honestly, I used that as an example. I'm much more interested in what happens with a +3 arrow.
So you're of the opinion that the "bane" special quality isn't passed on, but rather that the pieces thereof are?
A +N enhancement arrow IS nice, but I'd rely on the party spellcaster to buff your ammo using Greater Magic Weapon well before combat.
This spell functions like magic weapon, except that it gives a weapon an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5). This bonus does not allow a weapon to bypass damage reduction aside from magic.
Still won't bypass DR/material or DR/alignment
/cevah
A +N enhancement arrow IS nice, but I'd rely on the party spellcaster to buff your ammo using Greater Magic Weapon well before combat.This spell functions like magic weapon, except that it gives a weapon an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5). This bonus does not allow a weapon to bypass damage reduction aside from magic.Still won't bypass DR/material or DR/alignment
/cevah
Exactly. Get the spell Versatile Weapon instead. It's GMW, and mundane material bypass of 1 type at casting, but less duration.
Exactly. Get the spell Versatile Weapon instead. It's GMW, and mundane material bypass of 1 type at casting, but less duration.
Downsides:
Not on the Cleric/Oracle list. My Cleric cannot get this.Duration means I cast in combat and may last for a second combat vs. cast in the morning (out of combat) and up all day.
/cevah
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well, I was talking a regular non-MW arrow.
I'm curious as to why +3 would make any difference other than the starting baseline is a high value GP item and as a weapon it bypasses DR as a +3 item. The +3 arrow effectively gains bane (but there's a difference between effective and actual, and that's in any DR not added as per the FAQ).
From a big view I can see the difference between the cost of a; +3 arrow, a bane +3 arrow{+4}, a +1 Bane bow, and a +2 bow(which could be used on all the arrows). The FAQ is trying to highlight the difference as you paid more for the higher bonus arrow and it *should* be better.
With added damage from favored type, bane, sneak, etc the DR is just a small part of it and only comes into play when the target has a tough DR.
Right. We have a fundamental disagreement about Bane and how it's passed to the arrow.
Here's a for instance:
+1 [creature] bane bow shot at [creature] using:
+3 arrow
Is the arrow +5 or +3?
If BANE ITSELF is passed on, it's a +5 arrow. Not only does it bypass alignment, it also does 2 more points of damage in addition to its d6's.
If bane is PIECEWISE passed on, the bow counts as +3, shooting a +3 arrow. It bypasses Silver/Cold Iron because +3 arrow, and it does it's d6's, but no +2.
By my reading, however, the ARROW ITSELF receives the BANE property. NOT that it gets it piecewise from the weapon. Because that's how the Core Rulebook reads.
One of the best things about bows is the ability to pass special abilities to the arrows. You get double your money, but it's expendable. This should be the same for Bane.