I have a couple question concerning the Gun chemist Archetype for alchemist.
The game will start us off at LV 6 and I am unsure of a few things.
1st. I am Debating between Playing a human for sat boost and the bonus feat, or playing a tie fling for the pretIsle tail and the boost to the main stats I care about.
I am also unsure of what discoverise would to me good.
For Feats I know i,m taking point blank and presices shot but not sure what else
I am also unsure what gun to use Assume early guns so I'm thinking so type of gun with the scatter feature
If nothing answers by Friday--after my finals are all done (one way or another!) then I'll come info dump a bit.
but.
Go to pathfinder reddit (there are like.. 2 or 3 reddits mind you) and look up the GUnchemist. There are a fair few threads.
might be easier to Search Engine "Reddit" "pathfinder" "gunchemist" to rapidly find from all thread thingies.
i can say though. if you're using scatter (I do) you're gun choices are effectively super limited anyway. Pretty much just the dragonpistol--because its nearly impossible to effectively use the scatter two handed firearms (excluding advanced firearm shotgun).
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oh random trick. (Check the rules for this though because I have not done a fine look yet. as its been like 4 years since I used it).
Buckler Gun. Two barrel kind of hard to load. But. Can use alchemical shot
So. Stick something useful in there as a back up. Good for awkward situations to have a backup shot. It was of more use to me in my game though, because I was allowed to pay extra to make it scatter (home game) (also reloaded it with an beneficial bandolier the rare times I had to in battle. which I think was.. twice ever?. which was a chest item in my game.. because ..... you're actually quite hard pressed to find a bandoleer in pictures that ISN'T a chest item. I think its originally a belt item in pathfinder though for some reason)
IF you are in a home game, you could ask if you can make it scatter somehow (I think there is an in rules way.. but i dont' remember how.... though off hand reminds me of transformative enchantment but probably not that)
if you can get the buckler gun to be Scatter. then you can use it to keep dragon's breath or something in it for backup. Dragon's Breath just being the most useful off hand for me.
but you'll have to look at a way to add that somehow.
I see. I want to plan out a level 20 build cause i know the Gm Said the levels will get high in this game
he has not told us what level we'll start but he said it be between 2 - 8 and i could see us getting to lv 18 at least
Looking at it - the discovery which gives you splash damage back is incompatible with any discovery which modifies splash damage, so don't worry about stink bomb etc. You will still want a discovery or two to change the damage type of your ordnance.
Accuracy looks likely to be a problem. You've got 3/4 BAB and using a scatter weapon means you're not targeting touch AC. It might be worth getting variant multiclass (VMC) magus to help with that, by enchanting your gun and getting magus arcana to improve your accuracy.
@ avr
Dose that mean I can not use the Dispelling Bomb Discovery or the Tanglefoot Bomb Disocvery for my Alchemical Ordnance?
and if i can what happens if i use it with Ammo Like Dragon Breath Al chemical cartridges?
If you use solid shot dispelling bomb's fine - it doesn't use the splash effect in any way. It won't work with scatter shot. Tanglefoot bomb's splash effect occurs only when using scattering ammo, and the direct hit effect occurs only with solid shot, and you get no splash effect with solid shot.
How a gun chemist's alchemical ordnance interacts with dragon's breath alchemical cartridges is undefined in the rules. Your GM might say that the damage adds together and the 'direct hit' effect occurs on a failed save, they might say that they add but the direct hit effect can't occur, they might say that you can't use them together. Or they might have some idea I haven't thought of.
@ Avr
could you Recommend me my first 5 discoveries so i have a fair idea
I like a mix of Damage and utility effects
I VMC's and it was totally worth it for me. I was a dragon pistol+buckler/shield style alchemist though
avr wrote:
Accuracy looks likely to be a problem. You've got 3/4 BAB and using a scatter weapon means you're not targeting touch AC. It might be worth getting variant multiclass (VMC) magus to help with that, by enchanting your gun and getting magus arcana to improve your accuracy.
What do you mean not targeting touch AC?
I don't see anything stating it doesn't target touch AC as if it is still within the first increment So taking a dragon pistol w/in 10ft is touch. last 5 ft of the scatter is not touch.
: When firing an early firearm, the attack resolves against the target’s touch AC when the target is within the first range increment of the weapon, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim
"The dragon pistol fires in a 15-foot cone when firing pellets, and has a 10-foot range increment when firing a bullet."
Scatter Weapon Quality: A weapon with the scatter weapon quality can shoot two different types of ammunition. It can fire normal bullets that target one creature, or it can make a scattering shot, attacking all creatures within a cone. Cannons with the scatter weapon quality only fire grapeshot, unless their descriptions state otherwise. When a scatter weapon attacks all creatures within a cone, it makes a separate attack roll against each creature within the cone. Each attack roll takes a –2 penalty, and its attack damage cannot be modified by precision damage or damage-increasing feats such as Vital Strike. Effects that grant concealment, such as fog or smoke, or the blur, invisibility, or mirror image spells, do not foil a scatter attack. If any of the attack rolls threaten a critical, confirm the critical for that attack roll alone. A firearm that makes a scatter shot misfires only if all of the attack rolls made misfire. If a scatter weapon explodes on a misfire, it deals triple its damage to all creatures within the misfire radiusStrike.
@Zwordsman: From your quote, it has a 10' range incr. when firing a bullet. i.e. not when it's firing pellets. When firing pellets it just has a flat maximum range of 15' with no range increments. This is also consistent with shotguns not being the most amazing weapon in the world for penetrating armor.
Sure, you can target touch AC within 10' with a dragon pistol using solid shot which doesn't scatter. Kind of negates the point of using one tho'.
@Julius: Assuming you won't have spare feats for extra discovery maybe
2: Sand bomb (blind enemies whether using scatter shot or not)
4: Spontaneous healing
6: Concussive bomb (sonic damage, and effectively no penalty if using splash)
8: Fast ordnance (the equivalent of fast bombs)
10: Enhance potion
@ avr
oh that looks good
can you help with feats? Assume i'm going human I am not sure what all races are allowed but i know humans are for sure
if their allowed I might go Teifling for the tail though.
If going with VMC magus then this is how I might do it:
1: Point blank shot
Human: Precise shot
5: Rapid shot
Gun chemist 6: Rapid reload
9: Extra arcane pool or extra magus arcana
13: Extra magus arcana or extra arcane pool
17: Improved precise shot
If not using VMC magus so you have the normal amount of feats I might well go for overwatch style & the following feats, and/or possibly snap shot & successors.
Ooh. I can see that reading. Also makes some sense because the increment section lists "bullet" but scatter lists "pellet"
Though random places referre to pellets as bullets.
Most folks I know read it slightly differently.. In that any attacks with the firearm within the increment range count as touch.
I.e. the incremenet is 10. the scatter is 15.
the first 10ft count as touch. the last 5 don't.
since the firearm's scatter i a property instead.
Several premade characteres/games have notes of scatter vs touch. but. those things quite often break the rules anyway.
Guess my games are luckier that way
because scatter is somewhat not worth it if its against normal AC. I'll be sure to ask Gm's in the future
@ Avr
can I ask what would be stronger, the VMC Magus or just taking my normal feats and using overwatch Style line and snap shot ?
How Dose this look for a level 20 build
I need help picking out the rest of my discoveries
1:Feat- Point blank shot
1:Feat- Precise shot
2:Discovery- Sand bomb
3:Feat- Weapon Focus - Pistol
4:Discovery- Spontaneous Healing
5:Feat- Rapid shot
6:Feat- Rapid Reload
6:Discovery- Concussive bomb
7:Feat- Overwatch Style
8:Discovery- Fast ordnance
9:Feat- Overwatch Tactician
10:Discovery- Enhance Potion
11:Feat- Clustered Shots
12:Discovery-
13:Feat- Snap Shot
14:Discovery-
15:Feat- Overwatch Vortex
16:Discovery-
17:Feat- Improved Precise Shot
18:Discovery-
19:Feat- Improved Snap Shot
20:Discovery-
Not bad. One thing I'd do differently - when faced with DR of a type your ammo can't beat you can use alchemical ordnance to do damage, and I don't think that using clustered shots with scatter should work either, so that's one feat you don't necessarily need.
As to whether feats or VMC magus is better - certainly the VMC if you have a reasonable number of encounters/day. If you'd be likely to run out of arcane pool points then the feats. It's a question of your GMs and your gaming groups' styles, I can't tell you which of those is true.
@ AVR any idea what i should replace cluster shots with?
You can move snap shot to 11 and improved snap shot to 13, then get maybe weapon trick (ranged weapon), or greater snap shot if you prefer at 19.
@ AVR
and just curious what would you take if you were me for my remaining discoveries
Greater mutagen at 12, grand mutagen at 16 IMO, which is the earliest you can get them. For the 14 & 18 discoveries I might vary it depending on what the alchemist found themselves doing most, but extend potion and eternal potion are reasonable defaults.
@ Avr
well for 14 and 18 what would be a couple of good bomb Discoveries to give my Alchemical Ordnanace more versatility?
I guess since you have fire and sonic damage available you might want a physical damage type? Thorny bomb perhaps for magic piercing damage. One more... neutralizing bomb is a neat trick, use with salt shot unless your friends are very understanding.
Actually chemical stability might be better than thorny bomb, misfires could be very annoying. YMMV.
@ AVR I guess all i need now is advice on
my Firearm and my other items
were starting at lv 5 -wealth by level is being used
10 500 gp, right? I'd suggest your weapon be a +1 paddle-foot pistol if spending 4 800 gp is acceptable - I've heard of limits as low as 1/4 of your starting wealth on a single item. 1/2 or so is more common, true. With that a backup weapon of a buckler gun (masterwork as a shield; 900 gp) and ~300-400 gp of ammo seem reasonable. A cloak of resistance +1, mithral chain shirt, 3 good potions to use with alchemical allocation (heroism, fly and clay skin perhaps) and some mundane gear could fill out the rest.
@ AVR what all can neutralizing Help with, I see it says other conditions
but i am not understanding what all that includes
@ AVR so we are not Allowed Magic items to start
so Idk what all to start with
I get my gun from my class right?
and alchemical and master work items are not magic right?
I'm assuming that's conditions as per this list: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions/ though don't be a smartarse and try and shoot away dead. It also needs to have a save DC either initially or to remove the condition.
With no magic items I'd be strongly pushed towards the VMC magus to be able to enchant my weapon on the fly. The free gun comes off a restricted list BTW.
Anyway, a possible equipment list.
2 800 masterwork paddle-foot pistol
1 200 masterwork (as weapon and as shield) buckler gun
300 masterwork pistol, blunderbuss or musket - your free gun, upgraded to masterwork tho' it's a backup now. You may prefer not to keep it if you're on a tight encumbrance budget due to low strength.
1 100 mithral chain shirt
400 weapon blanch (ghost salt) (2)
200 weapon blanch (adamantine) (2)
40 weapon blanch (cold iron) (2)
10 weapon blanch (silver) (2)
--- note weapon blanches can and should be applied in advance with no limit. Each covers 10 bullets or pellets. but not alchemical cartridges which would burn during the application.
2 pellets (60)
1 bullets (30)
9 powder horn (3)
300 black powder (30)
100 alchemical cartridge (paper, pellets) (10)
100 alchemical cartridge (paper, bullets) (10)
120 alchemical cartridge (salt shot) (10)
160 alchemical cartridge (entangling) (4)
160 alchemical cartridge (molten shot) (4)
120 alchemical cartridge (repellent) (4)
15 gunsmith's kit
40 alchemist's kit (maybe dump the pot and torches if you're low strength)
50 masterwork backpack
100 antitoxin (2)
50 antiplague
200 troll styptic (2)
That leaves you with ~3 000 gp to pursue other interests. Alchemical remedies, weird sense or skill boosts, a mithral waffle iron; whatever floats your boat. Just remember to save a little to make black powder etc. in the field.
AVR aww i can't shoot my party back to life? XD
Ya i am not that type of player but i was just curious cause i want to be able to use my abilities the best i can
There is actually a way to shoot people back to life
I forget how.
might be related to a different archetype
JuliusCromwell wrote:
I get my gun from my class right?
Yes, but with some conditions.
The Gun Chemist gains the same Gunsmith class feature as the standard Gunslinger. This means they get the Gunsmithing bonus feat, and also a battered gun. They still are limited to choosing from the blunderbuss, musket, or pistol, the same as a Gunslinger. In addition, they can expend a use of alchemical ordnance to repair a broken gun, as long as the broken condition was from a misfire.
Ok Question can some one tell me what are some of decent Alchemical items to craft are that i can get good use out of for a while well I gain levels
I'm not all sure what are items that will be worth my item to craft /buy
Various alchemical remedies could be worthwhile. Otherwise it depends how you want to operate. Someone who sneaks into places might like a tunnel creeper, a red flame torch and deodorizing agent; someone who wants to know everything might like tracking powder/snuff and insight leaves. Various kinds of alchemical booze offer buffs to the drinker. What do you want to do?
@ avr
well maybe i should explain that Game is based on an Anime/novel
were Adventures explore a giant maze like Dungeon , with many many floors. you kill monsters get stones (The Gm is making a stone from a monster worth 100GP X its Cr) and we live in family like guilds run by a God/goddess. Magic items exist but are very rare and only stuff like magic weapons and armor are common well others are very hard to find
I want to be ready for most situations I know i can't match a wizard for being a Batman type character but i figure i can give it the ol good try and have a good amount ready for most problems
I also figured i could save the group some money by crafting alchemy items to help levitate the lack of magic items
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