Spells That Cause Character Movement and Grappling

[Chrion]

Is there a general rule that deals with how spells that cause you to move interact with grapple? Specifically spells that cause to you move through space as opposed to being teleported from one place to another. The specific issue we had was a Magus wanting to cast Bladed Dash while he was grappled. I know about the concentration checks etc., but if he got the spell off, would it break the grapple, or would the creature that's grappling him be pulled along with him, or would the grapple prevent the movement?

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/bladed-dash/

[SlimGauge]

I'm in the "grapple would prevent the movement" camp, but I can't cite any rules at the moment.

[Chrion]

That was my first thought as well, since grappled creatures can't move. But, on the other hand, spells do what the description says they do. Thus, my confusion.

[thorin001]

Bladed Dash allows movement, not forces it. (You can move UP TO 30'.) In this case it would do nothing since you cannot move while grappled unless you make a CMB check to move the grapple.

[Azothath]

I'm agreeing with thorin001 for bladed dash.
There are a few spells that help in a grapple (without a CMB check) but bladed dash isn't one of them.

[Chrion]

thorin001 wrote:

Bladed Dash allows movement, not forces it. (You can move UP TO 30'.) In this case it would do nothing since you cannot move while grappled unless you make a CMB check to move the grapple.

Are there spells that specifically use the words "can" or "may" to indicate that you are allowed movement, rather than forced to move? For, even thought Bladed Dash says you move up to 30', it doesn't say "may" or "can", it simply says, "you immediately move up to 30'".

[Azothath]

Chrion wrote:

thorin001 wrote:

Bladed Dash allows movement, not forces it. (You can move UP TO 30'.) In this case it would do nothing since you cannot move while grappled unless you make a CMB check to move the grapple.

Are there spells that specifically use the words "can" or "may" to indicate that you are allowed movement, rather than forced to move? For, even thought Bladed Dash says you move up to 30', it doesn't say "may" or "can", it simply says, "you immediately move up to 30'".

Bladed Dash spell. When you cast this spell, you immediately move up to 30 feet in a straight line any direction, momentarily leaving a multi-hued cascade of images behind you. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. You may make a single melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against any one creature you are adjacent to at any point along this 30 feet. You gain a circumstance bonus on your attack roll equal to your Intelligence or Charisma modifier, whichever is higher. You must end the bonus movement granted by this spell in an unoccupied square. If no such space is available along the trajectory, the spell fails. Despite the name, the spell works with any melee weapon.

for me it's the "must end the bonus movement granted by this spell" which means you have to move freely and in a straight line(from previous text in the spell) or have some movement to begin with. It is bolstered by "this spell in an unoccupied square. If no such space is available along the trajectory, the spell fails." The starting square is along the path(the caster doesn't count as he is in the first then last square of the path). That clearly implies you cannot move through occupied squares. In PF adjacent also has the meaning of "in your square".

Telekinetic Charge 4th seems workable and raises some questions...

[Chrion]

I'm not sure I understand what your getting at. If your grappling me, and I move away from you in a direction that doesn't move through you, then I wouldn't be moving through an occupied square.

[blahpers]

"you immediately move"
"Grappled creatures cannot move"

Nope, no move.

[Chrion]

blahpers wrote:

"you immediately move"

"Grappled creatures cannot move"

Nope, no move.

Don't specific statements take precedence over general rules though?

[blahpers]

In this case, neither is more specific than the other--we have two distinct specific situations (being grappled and being under the influence of a spell that doesn't specifically address grappled behavior). The more relevant rules guideline is that something that says "X can't happen" generally supersedes something else that says "X can happen". For example, Rapid Shot is more specific than the attack rules, but even though it says you can make an additional attack with a longbow, you still can't do so if you don't have enough arrows*. Similarly, a stunned creature under the effects of mythic haste can't take advantage of the the latter's "gain an additional move action each round" text because stunned creatures cannot take actions.

*Well, I suppose you could throw your bow, or quick draw and use a throwing weapon or something, but you get the idea.

[Azothath]

Chrion wrote:

I'm not sure I understand what your getting at. If your grappling me, and I move away from you in a direction that doesn't move through you, then I wouldn't be moving through an occupied square.

You are addressing the supporting statement not the main statement. Bonus Movement... that means it is in addition to your normal movement. If you cannot move then bonus movement (speed) isn't going to do you any good.

You don't have to resort to a specific vs general line of reasoning.

[Claxon]

I'm not sure how exactly I would run it, but whatever I did it would not get you out of the grapple without using one of the mechanics that says it gets you out of grapple. So while I can't tel you which is correct, the grappler would either be brought along or it would completely prevent the movement.

[Azothath]

There are a few problematic situations. Create Pit (under one grappler), Blink, Levitate, Gaseous Form, Dimension Door, Shadowform, Shadowstep, Cloudshape, Scorching Ash Form, Planeshift, Ethereal Jump, Teleport...

I'm not saying that they will get you out of a grapple, but it makes the GM think about the situation and read the spell closely.