Always having the need to eat vs always feeling you have the need to eat isn't really different IMO. You aren't eating to be 'bad' or 'evil' in either case, you're eating to fill a primal need."Eternal/unquenchable" is pretty different than needing to eat vastly more or die.All those examples need to eat though.Take that up with TheGlitch...
[Edit] An eternal hunger or unquenchable thirt is unnatural and, expecially if it damages life, evil.His claim is that it's the hunger/thirst that's evil, not the need to eat.
It's evil if you do it even though you don't need to.
theGlitch: we're just going in circles so I'll just say I 100% disagree with your entire last post but I'm not going point by point anymore. I saw nothing that disproves anything in my last post to you.
Aww and here i thought we were finally getting somewhere. Oh well, everyone is entitled to his own opinion.
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Is moral thought a requisite for having a non-TN alignment ?IMO, you shouldn't even have a neutral alignment when mindless: you have the same intelligence as a rock. From the alignment section: "A creature's general moral and personal attitudes are represented by its alignment". If you HAVE no attitudes [a way of THINKING], you can't have an alignment.
Then we have a problem with mindless creatures existing at all. Because even mindless creatures are capable of actions and behaviors IMO.
I see personal attitudes as the way creatures tend to behave, whether it comes from instinct, intellect or some other motivation.
And I think those can be of an alignment independently of whether intellect or sentience is there or not.
Otherwise, Alignments can only be constructs of a mind and thus not universal absolutes that have Planes and even the rules of existence taking them into account.
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Debatable as it just gives a bonus to the smite but itself doesn't trigger the smite. Note that is goes out of it's way to mention EVIL dragons. IMO, undead aren't mentioned the same way as they are assumed evil.Not debatable as the text is quite clear about undead triggering the effect.
No. You cannot Smite a good-aligned ghost because it's not evil, but if you could, it would take 2x the damage on the first hit because it's undead.
The solution is to allow the smite on the good-aligned ghost because it's undead.Makes no sense. If I use the soul of an orphan to make a mundane knife, it's not an EVIL knife. The aligned act doesn't affect the target: an evil spell doesn't cause it's target to be evil.This makes no sense. Why would using the soul of an orphan be influential in the creation of a mundane knife? If you make a magical knife with said soul you probably are not creating a Bane of the evil outsiders, Merciful Holy knife, but more realistically a sacrificial dagger for some dark ritual. Also if the effect of the spell is to create a creature then yes, an evil spell creates an evil creature (planar binding comes to mind).
Bolded for emphasis.
Where are you getting this from? It seems like a rather arbitrary addition to spell text that you just made up to support your own views.If casting Animate Dead is evil because it has the [Evil] tag, that means the caster takes a hit towards evil to their alignment, but it doesn't logically hold that it's the reason that the undead animated are evil.
If that were the case, Infernal Healing would turn the people healed by it evil too, but no one's making that argument.
"There is a vampire somewhere in the town - we should find it and slay it before it eats people"
"There is a vampire somewhere in the town, a known killer - we should fint it and slay it before it eats people."
Done, with three words I have solved your issue.
No, you have not.
I want some villainous creatures out there that I specifically DON'T have to look up their history to prove they are a known killer.
I want to have alignment in the system and I want to have some bad guys that everyone agrees are bad guys and we don't need to have a trial with a presumption of innocence until proven guilty before the PCs feel its definitely right to take action.
That kind of plot is fine to have some of the time, but every once in a while I want my goodly PCs to be able to just go and smite evil without too much of a quandary to it, which is why I'm so keen to have some groups that are just evil by definition.
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Undead are evil simply because their existence is unbearable.
Think about it. Your friends grow old and die. They move on to the afterlife, even their descendants die and move on. The small pleasures in life don't exist. No eating, sense of touch, taste, smell. No love, no passion, no sex. You just exist and your existence is lonely. No one understands the pain you are in because your existence is so alien to them. It causes you to become bitter. You grow angry and resentful and lash out at others. The only thing that eases your torment is causing torment in another and so you perpetuate an abusive cycle since it grants you power and you don't feel so helpless being undead.
Undead are evil simply because their existence is unbearable.
Think about it. Your friends grow old and die. They move on to the afterlife, even their descendants die and move on. The small pleasures in life don't exist. No eating, sense of touch, taste, smell. No love, no passion, no sex. You just exist and your existence is lonely. No one understands the pain you are in because your existence is so alien to them. It causes you to become bitter. You grow angry and resentful and lash out at others. The only thing that eases your torment is causing torment in another and so you perpetuate an abusive cycle since it grants you power and you don't feel so helpless being undead.
You're constantly hangry, no matter how much you feed its still there, not because your stomach is empty, but because you're a channel to an eternal empty void that eats away at nearly anything it comes in contact with.
Debatable as it just gives a bonus to the smite but itself doesn't trigger the smite. Note that is goes out of it's way to mention EVIL dragons. IMO, undead aren't mentioned the same way as they are assumed evil.Not debatable as the text is quite clear about undead triggering the effect.No. You cannot Smite a good-aligned ghost because it's not evil, but if you could, it would take 2x the damage on the first hit because it's undead.
The solution is to allow the smite on the good-aligned ghost because it's undead.
The CRB EXPLICITLY says that it deals double damage against [evil] outsiders, evil dragons and undead (regardless their alignment). It does specify that the CHA bonus to the attack roll is exclusively against evil aligned creatures, so this could be used to recognise a non-evil ghost and offer some nice roleplay moments
Makes no sense. If I use the soul of an orphan to make a mundane knife, it's not an EVIL knife. The aligned act doesn't affect the target: an evil spell doesn't cause it's target to be evil.This makes no sense. Why would using the soul of an orphan be influential in the creation of a mundane knife? If you make a magical knife with said soul you probably are not creating a Bane of the evil outsiders, Merciful Holy knife, but more realistically a sacrificial dagger for some dark ritual. Also if the effect of the spell is to create a creature then yes, an evil spell creates an evil creature (planar binding comes to mind).Bolded for emphasis.
Where are you getting this from? It seems like a rather arbitrary addition to spell text that you just made up to support your own views.
If casting Animate Dead is evil because it has the [Evil] tag, that means the caster takes a hit towards evil to their alignment, but it doesn't logically hold that it's the reason that the undead animated are evil.
If that were the case, Infernal Healing would turn the people healed by it evil too, but no one's making that argument.
When you use a calling spell to call an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type.
An evil spell creates an evil creature.
Regarding INFERNAL Healing, while it does specify that it doesn't mechanically affect the target, its evilness can be felt. If i were to play a paladin i would at least try to save against it.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
How about a Locus swarm? The swarm is driven over large areas to feed to sustain itself destroying wast areas of land and upset the ecosystem until it sorts itself out. Would mindless swarms then we considered evil?
Its been stated by JJ and some devs that casting a evil spell is considered evil, and in some situation even do a dent in the characters alignment. Theres a spell that could summon evil and yet is not considered so is summon creature, or the gate spell. Both have potensial from evil, and from what i reckon they dont change their spell descriptor to evil even if a "Fiendish" or demonic entity is summoned.
How about a Locus swarm? The swarm is driven over large areas to feed to sustain itself destroying wast areas of land and upset the ecosystem until it sorts itself out. Would mindless swarms then we considered evil?
Its been stated by JJ and some devs that casting a evil spell is considered evil, and in some situation even do a dent in the characters alignment. Theres a spell that could summon evil and yet is not considered so is summon creature, or the gate spell. Both have potensial from evil, and from what i reckon they dont change their spell descriptor to evil even if a "Fiendish" or demonic entity is summoned.
As you said, a locust swarm do it to sustain itself, it would die if it didn't eat. A ghoul, which is specifies that eats, does so because its compelled to, but can go without eating for centuries.
All conjuration spell that summon or call creatures get the descriptors [alignment] and/or [element] of the summoned or called creature. Summoning a trumpet archon is a lawful good act, calling a balor is a chaotic evil act.
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Scarab Sages Faction trait (and before that it was Osirion, from Season Zero all the way thru Season nine...)
Attuned to the Ancestors - Source PFS Guide to Organized Play 6.0 pg. 16 (and older editions of the Guide)
You were raised to believe that undead are nothing to fear—they are simply the unliving remnants of your honored ancestors. Once per day, you can surround yourself with an aura of unlife. Unintelligent undead ignore you unless you take action against them, per hide from undead. The protection lasts 1 round for every two character levels you possess (with a minimum of 1 round). If you take any offensive action against any undead, this effect immediately ends. This is a supernatural ability.
wow... I guess that's why we got rid of Scarab Sages... they were actually the EVIL faction, not Dark Archive!
So, from day one, the Osirion faction seemed to indicate that Osirion culture often felt "that undead are nothing to fear—they are simply the unliving remnants of your honored ancestors." and that if you didn't attack them, they wouldn't attack you.
But they are listed as having an Evil alignment! So they must always do Evil things and so are always Evil!
Wait... Orcs are listed as having an Evil alignment.
Orc warrior 1 - CE Medium humanoid
so "...they are listed as having an Evil alignment! So they must always do Evil things and so are always Evil!"
Kobolds - "Kobold warrior 1 - LE Small humanoid (reptilian)"
Mites - "LE Small fey"
Morlock - "CE Medium monstrous humanoid"
etc.
We are willing to give the other (living) races the benefit of the POSIBILITY that they are MAYBE not locked into doing evil things... but Skeletons (which have no write-up saying they do evil...) we assume they are going to do evil things (if given no orders) - and we justify this by saying they do evil things because they are evil. (and they are evil because they do evil things...).
Oh...
"because the designers said so".
Ok then. I guess that answers that.
Why are Undead Evil?
Because the campaign designers said so.
full stop.
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You were raised to believeRaised to believe a certain thing doesn't mean that certain thing is true. People in Razmir are raised to believe that Razmir is a god. Doesn't make him one.
We are willing to give the other (living) races the benefitThe races that have free will and aren't created and powered by a perversion of a natural energy of the multiverse/and the damage of souls.
Why are Undead Evil?
Because the campaign designers said so.
full stop.
Yep.
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Pursuing my line of thought about a bit of Aligned stuff being necessary to ensure that the link between undead and negative energy does not self-destruct (per the destructive nature of negative energy)
Why should it be Evil ?
I can see fairly well Evil being all for the creation of an undying mobile engine of destruction inimical to life
Why not Good ?
Negative energy tends to destroy. I can see Good being somewhat averse to harnessing pure destruction that might come to harm innocent life. Also the matter of using corpses and souls with no notion of consent could be problematic
Why not Law ?
As many have stated before, going against the nature of things and the proper order of life and death is a big No-No for Law
Why not Chaos ?
Staying in one form for all eternity ? Pass
Why not True Neutral ?
Going against the will of Pharasma and incurring her endless wrath is not an attractive option to say the least
In the end Evil makes the most sense
the act of making an undead or becoming one might be an evil act for most. but at the same time a vampire, mummy, ghost, lich or other intelligent undead has the potential to redeem themselves within their undead state. they can do good and eventually become good.
undeath can also be a reward from a deity.
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the act of making an undead or becoming one might be an evil act for most. but at the same time a vampire, mummy, ghost, lich or other intelligent undead has the potential to redeem themselves within their undead state. they can do good and eventually become good.
Ok, now THAT is another pair of shoes. Though difficult, an intelligent undead can try and redeem itself. It is probably a very rare event, about as possible as a demon becoming good. *wink
undeath can also be a reward from a deity.
Lady Vol approves.
See, look deeper, why was "infernal healing" introduced into the game in the first place
right
right?
Poor design coupled with a complete disregard for the ultimate magic guidelines on creating new spells and power creep.
the act of making an undead or becoming one might be an evil act for most. but at the same time a vampire, mummy, ghost, lich or other intelligent undead has the potential to redeem themselves within their undead state. they can do good and eventually become good.Ok, now THAT is another pair of shoes. Though difficult, an intelligent undead can try and redeem itself. It is probably a very rare event, about as possible as a demon becoming good. *wink
undeath can also be a reward from a deity.Lady Vol approves.
thing is, a Lawful Good Incubus Paladin with a Vow of Chastity is totally on my Bucket List but nobody wants to accept one.
People tend to be against that kind of character because of the Drizz't syndrome.
Try adding some kind of twist to it, like a cursed glamered suit of armor that changes into pervy/unappropriated garments at random times (or not so random, if the suit is intelligent and acts as a phylactery of the incubus wicked and perverted nature).
I found that adding comedic/interesting RP elements helps in sugaring the pill.
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People tend to be against that kind of character because of the Drizz't syndrome.
Try adding some kind of twist to it, like a cursed glamered suit of armor that changes into pervy/unappropriated garments at random times (or not so random, if the suit is intelligent and acts as a phylactery of the incubus wicked and perverted nature).I found that adding comedic/interesting RP elements helps in sugaring the pill.
That actually makes it worse.
Ah yes, constructive criticism and a valid alternative...
Your post lacks both.
EDIT: I believe we're going a bit OT now.