Unchained Automatic Bonus Progression should be Core in PF2e


Prerelease Discussion


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Or rather, the core math of the game should take into account the fact that magic items are not mandatory. You don't need magic items to keep up with the games math; that way low magic games are possible and every magic item becomes special and flavorful with a cool ability that's useful at any level.

You also don't need to waste time on figuring out how the party can get the next bunch of +X items they need to keep up with the game math and can instead use that time to develop interesting stories and, you know, actually play the game.

Another great thing about this is that the fighter who has had his trusty flaming longsword granted by his dying mentor while leaving on his adventure doesn't discard it for the keen frosted longsword+2, or the vospal greataxe +4, which in PF1e would have been a no-brainer thing to do, character arc & backstory be damned!

Liberty's Edge

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They have specifically noted that most such items are nonexistent in PF2 (specific mention was made of Rings of Protection and Cloaks of Resistance).

Magic weapons and armor are still around and necessary as you level, and there's one other item that's maybe necessary by mid levels...but that's it.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Magic weapons and armor are still around and necessary as you level

The necessary part is disappointing for me to hear.

Liberty's Edge

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Weather Report wrote:
The necessary part is disappointing for me to hear.

Well, given that I doubt Monks use either, I doubt it's entirely necessary, but yeah, those seem to be needed most of the time. That said, with only two or three items, an Automatic Bonus Progression system is a lot easier to set up.


I'm sure if a DM doesn't want magic weapons or magic armor in their world, it's easy enough to fold the benefits you would get from those into leveling. Like the damage multiplier from magic weapons at levels 3, 7, 11, 15, and 19. It's a lot easier to do it for just a couple items like weapons than to try to account for the whole panoply of necessary items in PF1.


Fuzzypaws wrote:
I'm sure if a DM doesn't want magic weapons or magic armor in their world, it's easy enough to fold the benefits you would get from those into leveling. Like the damage multiplier from magic weapons at levels 3, 7, 11, 15, and 19. It's a lot easier to do it for just a couple items like weapons than to try to account for the whole panoply of necessary items in PF1.

Yeah, like in PF1. just give all characters +1/2 hit dice/character level to AC, cuts out the amulet/ring thingy.


It wouldn't be that hard to allow certain classes to treat any weapon as a magic weapon with a bonus that depends upon class level. Monks have always had it with unarmed weapon damage to some extent. Just give fighters a +d bonus that does not increase with magic weapon bonuses.

Grand Lodge

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I for one do not want to see the Unchained progression in 2nd ed. I played in a campaign that did that and it was very disappointing. I have always enjoyed my characters finding magic weapons while adventuring. The GM ended that by using the progression and saying whatever weapons we were carrying just poof and started being magical. I think it takes some of the fun away when you lose the element of finding neat magical treasures.


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The Frog wrote:
I for one do not want to see the Unchained progression in 2nd ed. I played in a campaign that did that and it was very disappointing. I have always enjoyed my characters finding magic weapons while adventuring. The GM ended that by using the progression and saying whatever weapons we were carrying just poof and started being magical. I think it takes some of the fun away when you lose the element of finding neat magical treasures.

I understand this perspective, but I don't think it has to necessarily relate to ABP or not.

Is finding a "magical longsword of +1 hitting" all that engaging as a character? How do you even roleplay finding a sword with just a raw enhancement bonus?

I definitely think it would be more fun to have the system take care of the mathemagical parts of weapon progression so I have appropriate abilities for a given level. Let magic items really feel magical by giving them interesting new abilities or powers.

Finally, I much prefer this handy homebrew to the Paizo official Automatic Bonus Progression system. It still keeps the automatic scaling in, but it gives the reigns back to the players and allows them to focus on a specific aspect of their builds while they can choose to ignore or focus less on unimportant abilities.


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

I got the impression that the new rules make automatic bonus progression unnecessary because they fixed the underlying math. The system in Pathfinder Unchained was more of a patch to the original rules to grant the appropriate bonuses without handing out the otherwise necessary magic items.


I have serious issues with Automatic Bonus Progression. I understand its appeal, and agree that it provides a solution to the issue of invalidating certain item slots, but it removes choice and variety from the players.

As a 10th level wizard with 20000gp, is it better to upgrade my Headband of Vast Intellect +4 to +6, or should I get a Staff of Fire?

Both are valid options. Both have their own merits. Both should be available.

Automatic bonus progression detracts from the ability of a player to focus on one aspect of their character.

By all means, replace the Headband of Vast Intellect with a slotless item or purchasable enhancement that has the same effect (to free up the item slot). Do the same with resistance bonuses to saves, deflection bonuses and natural armour bonuses to AC and the like.

But don't assume that everyone will be buying them at a given level. It dilutes the experience overall.

Leave the choice with the players.


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Mekkis wrote:

I have serious issues with Automatic Bonus Progression. I understand its appeal, and agree that it provides a solution to the issue of invalidating certain item slots, but it removes choice and variety from the players.

As a 10th level wizard with 20000gp, is it better to upgrade my Headband of Vast Intellect +4 to +6, or should I get a Staff of Fire?

Both are valid options. Both have their own merits. Both should be available.

Automatic bonus progression detracts from the ability of a player to focus on one aspect of their character.

By all means, replace the Headband of Vast Intellect with a slotless item or purchasable enhancement that has the same effect (to free up the item slot). Do the same with resistance bonuses to saves, deflection bonuses and natural armour bonuses to AC and the like.

But don't assume that everyone will be buying them at a given level. It dilutes the experience overall.

Leave the choice with the players.

You still have a lot of options.

The whole issue is that the progression of monster was built on the assumption that PCs would have certain ranges of numbers in the various stats. If you didn't have the big six, you fell out of that range and could really fail to contribute or have your character killed.

ABP rolled all that into your character advancement and says "Look, you can still buy all these cool items!", which is fine to me. You're not choosing between the headband and the staff, you're choosing between this staff, and that staff, and those wands, and that folding boat, and everything else.


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David knott 242 wrote:

I got the impression that the new rules make automatic bonus progression unnecessary because they fixed the underlying math. The system in Pathfinder Unchained was more of a patch to the original rules to grant the appropriate bonuses without handing out the otherwise necessary magic items.

As to the OP's question, I believe this is the correct answer.

The math for PF2 has been completely redone. We will not have the insane scaling of ability scores, saves, etc like we did in PF1. The have changed the monsters and the expected ability of PCs so that stat boosting items like the big six are no longer required, nor do they exist.


Claxon wrote:


You still have a lot of options.

The whole issue is that the progression of monster was built on the assumption that PCs would have certain ranges of numbers in the various stats. If you didn't have the big six, you fell out of that range and could really fail to contribute or have your character killed.

ABP rolled all that into your character advancement and says "Look, you can still buy all these cool items!", which is fine to me. You're not choosing between the headband and the staff, you're choosing between this staff, and that staff, and those wands, and that folding boat, and everything else.

You're not choosing any of them, because Wealth By Level has been adjusted so that that 20000gp that you could spend doesn't exist - it's already been rolled into those "big six"-related bonuses.

Unless you're saying that you don't reduce wealth-by-level when you use automatic bonus progression. If that's the issue, you could just throw an additional 20000gp at your players.

One of the beautiful things about Pathfinder is the vast array of moving parts available to tweak. And the fact that it largely works with this vast array of moving parts.


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The WBL issue might be a problem at lower levels, since yes, it is reduced but after that I generally don't view it as a problem.

Look, the end result is "the bonuses were practically required for your character to function, so instead we made them part of your character and the wealth you would have spend on them has been deducted" but they didn't put it on a track where you would spend all your available gold to upgrade those items. Before my group started using ABP practically no one bought anything but the big six until higher levels because we we're always saving up for the next big six item. Those tiny little incremental bonuses. In my experience, your issue of choice didn't exist because it was virtually a non-choice from the beginning when you could save up for a big six item.


Perhaps your group's view that the "big six" items are necessary and required for your character to function is a self-fulfilling view.

(One reason I'm using inverted commas when referring to the "big six" is that of the over twenty characters I've played in Pathfinder, none of them share the same five items)

It is a serious choice to make: My example above, comparing a Staff of Fire with increasing the bonus on a headband by +2 is a viable option.

The only reason you feel you need to throw your WBL at the "Big Six" is your own view - which you are welcome to have.

Just don't systematically impose it on everyone else.


I enjoy ABP, because:
* It feels like your PC is truly getting more epic!
* It's easier to explain to new players. If I had a dollar for every time I've had to explain that the flaming sword "needs a +1 on it" or "flat plusses and magical effects are similar but somewhat different" when it comes to MIs...
* It gives the GM more flexibility with antimagic!


I do not know why, but ABP's brother always gets ignored, Innate Item Bonuses.

It is not as straighforward as ABP at removing the big six, but it keeps lot of the customization alive.


Mekkis wrote:

Perhaps your group's view that the "big six" items are necessary and required for your character to function is a self-fulfilling view.

(One reason I'm using inverted commas when referring to the "big six" is that of the over twenty characters I've played in Pathfinder, none of them share the same five items)

It is a serious choice to make: My example above, comparing a Staff of Fire with increasing the bonus on a headband by +2 is a viable option.

The only reason you feel you need to throw your WBL at the "Big Six" is your own view - which you are welcome to have.

Just don't systematically impose it on everyone else.

But the worse case scenario is it simply delays when you would have bought it.

You're framing this as though it's solely a "if then/else". But it's not and never really was. The choice was usually more looking at if you should upgrade your weapon to a +2 from a +1 and increase your headband /belt from a +2 to a +4 or whether or not you should buy that other interesting item.

You are right that some characters didn't need all of the big six. Especially casters. I consider it a feature, not a bug, that they have items which are not necessarily optimal for them, but still have reduced WBL. Yes, it lowered the overall power creep that was possible. That was IMO, part of the point.

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