I am currently playing an Oath of Vengeance Paladin and just reached lvl 4. I am looking at ways to maximize my feats as Paladin's are generally feat-starved classes anyways. If I took a lvl in Fighter, I could maximize combat feats by taking three of them at lvl 1, then every feat after that I would put into Lay on Hands to maximize my Channel Wrath. What are your thoughts on that moving forward?
Wouldn’t you get one feat for hitting level 5 that everyone gets and then one bonus combat feat that the fighter gets at level 1 for a total of two? What is the source of the third feat?
born_of_fire wrote: Wouldn’t you get one feat for hitting level 5 that everyone gets and then one bonus combat feat that the fighter gets at level 1 for a total of two? What is the source of the third feat? The way I understood it was a fighter gets a bonus feat at lvl 1 making that two plus, as a human, I get a bonus feat for being lvl 1. Is that not right?
You only get your human bonus feat once, at level 1 in your first class.
Aren’t you level 4 now and planning ahead for level 5? That was how I took the situation from your description. If so, you already got your human bonus feat at character level 1. You don’t get a human bonus feat every time you take level 1 of a class. If you are rebuilding, retraining or making your character to start play at level 4 now then yes, it would be three feats at level 1 if your took your first level in fighter and three levels of pally after that.
If you are currently a level 3 pally and go fighter at level 4, you will get one bonus combat feat, that’s it.
(Egads, it took me more than 5 minutes to compose this)
born_of_fire wrote: Aren’t you level 4 now and planning ahead for level 5? That was how I took the situation from your description. If so, you already got your human bonus feat at character level 1. You don’t get a human bonus feat every time you take level 1 of a class. If you are rebuilding, retraining or making your character to start play at level 4 now then yes, it would be three feats at level 1 if your took your first level in fighter and three levels of pally after that.
If you are currently a level 3 pally and go fighter at level 4, you will get one bonus combat feat, that’s it.
(Egads, it took me more than 5 minutes to compose this)
Oooooooooooohhhh! It all makes sense now. I figured I had something mixed up there. You're right though with wanting to multiclass at lvl 5. Lvl 4 Pally gives me spellcasting finally which will come in handy for teamwork play next session. Is there any real benefit to multiclassing a lvl into Fighter? Because I want to maximize my Oath of Vengeance abilities, I will be lacking some other fighting capabilities. Right now, I am running with Fey Foundling, Power Attack, and Noble Scion: Scion of War. If I multiclassed into a Fighter at lvl 5, I would take Cleave and Radiant Charge. My character is built around the LoH ability as that is what he specializes in as an Oath of Vengeance archetype. The way I look at it, I can still be a factor in fighting with the Power Attack/Cleave combo while also able to heal myself and others and if all else fails, I have all those Smites and then a Radiant Charge to use as a Bonzai attack.
How often are enemies clustered together well enough for Cleave to work in your game? That's normally a very situational feat - though specific gamestyles can make it much more/less effective than usual - and I'm wondering if another strategy might end up working better for you.
GM Rednal wrote: How often are enemies clustered together well enough for Cleave to work in your game? That's normally a very situational feat - though specific gamestyles can make it much more/less effective than usual - and I'm wondering if another strategy might end up working better for you. So far in the two sessions we have played, we have fought two hordes of creatures: one on land and the other on a ship. What would you suggest in its place? I was also looking at Cornugon Smash to combo with Power/Attack.
That depends a bit on the weapon you're using - I don't think you mentioned that. If you're heavy on Lay on Hands usage, the Extra Lay on Hands feat should be pretty solid. (Extra Channel also gives you bonus uses, but only to heal, I think.) Furious Focus is also pretty solid when used with Power Attack.
GM Rednal wrote: That depends a bit on the weapon you're using - I don't think you mentioned that. If you're heavy on Lay on Hands usage, the Extra Lay on Hands feat should be pretty solid. (Extra Channel also gives you bonus uses, but only to heal, I think.) Furious Focus is also pretty solid when used with Power Attack. I'm using a Flaming Nodachi.
I can't use Channel Energy because I lost that class feature when I took the Oath of Vengeance archetype which replaced it with Channel Wrath instead.
Two-Handed, then. Yeah, I'd stick with those recommendations. XD Both are a little more consistent in their usefulness than Cleave, which requires enemies to be in certain positions.
Furious Focus, assuming your table has removed its connection to Gorum.
Extra LoH is probably what I would pick up at 5.
Paladin is a full BAB class, and you are low enough level power attack isn't a huge penalty, so Furious Focus isn't necessary, in my opinion.
Either way, multiclassing is not the answer.
Don’t multiclass a paladin for an extra feat. It is not worth it. Too many of your class abilities are level dependent. It also delays gaining the higher level class features which also is not worth it.
Mysterious Stranger wrote: Don’t multiclass a paladin for an extra feat. It is not worth it. Too many of your class abilities are level dependent. It also delays gaining the higher level class features which also is not worth it. That was going to be my next question: Is it worth it? It seems like all I am getting in the tradeoff is one extra feat. Is there a good class to multiclass the Pally with?
VoodistMonk wrote: Furious Focus, assuming your table has removed its connection to Gorum.
Extra LoH is probably what I would pick up at 5.
Paladin is a full BAB class, and you are low enough level power attack isn't a huge penalty, so Furious Focus isn't necessary, in my opinion.
Either way, multiclassing is not the answer.
I am starting to see the light. Thanks for the feedback!
In 3rd edition multiclassing made your more powerful because most of the class features were front loaded. If you wanted to gain cool powers as you leveled up you either multiclassed or went into a prestige class, or both. Pathfinder changed this. Now multiclassing usually weakens your character, and most prestige classes are weaker than the normal classes. This is because in pathfinder the classes now gain more class features as they level up. Also now many class features are level dependent. For example your paladin’s smite evil and lay on hands become more powerful as he levels up.
The rule of thumb in Pathfinder is not to multiclass. A paladin is not really feat starved unless you are comparing him to a class that gets bonus feats as a class feature. Compared to a fighter it may seem you have almost no feats, but consider that a does not have much else besides feats. They have weaker saving throws, no magic ability, or defensive abilities that the paladin gets.
Mysterious Stranger wrote: In 3rd edition multiclassing made your more powerful because most of the class features were front loaded. If you wanted to gain cool powers as you leveled up you either multiclassed or went into a prestige class, or both. Pathfinder changed this. Now multiclassing usually weakens your character, and most prestige classes are weaker than the normal classes. This is because in pathfinder the classes now gain more class features as they level up. Also now many class features are level dependent. For example your paladin’s smite evil and lay on hands become more powerful as he levels up.
The rule of thumb in Pathfinder is not to multiclass. A paladin is not really feat starved unless you are comparing him to a class that gets bonus feats as a class feature. Compared to a fighter it may seem you have almost no feats, but consider that a does not have much else besides feats. They have weaker saving throws, no magic ability, or defensive abilities that the paladin gets.
That makes perfect sense. I get Divine Bond at lvl 5 that would be delayed if I multiclass. That Divine Bond itself makes me stronger as it's a free enhancement to my weapon. I will keep rocking my Pally and smite all who stand before me. Thanks for the advice!
Mysterious Stranger wrote: The rule of thumb in Pathfinder is not to multiclass. That is a sound policy for 9-spell-level classes in hard-mode campaigns, or if you're under a GM who just plain dislikes excessively-multiclassed PCs (and that's a sentiment often well-deserved). Anything else, a small amount (two levels or less) of dabbling doesn't hurt most builds appreciably, and can be greatly beneficial to some, mainly martials.
As a 4-spell-level class, paladin multiclasses well...although generic fighter purely for additional feats isn't the best of available choices. On the other hand, if you were a charismatic fighter of lawful-good persuasion, two levels of paladin would be a very nice addition.
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(Disclosure: every paladin I've ever played has been multiclassed. Rogue (unchained or core) is particularly synergistic in halfling TWF builds.)
As I said it is a rule of thumb, not something that absolutely cannot be done. But I disagree that the only ones who are weakened by multiclassing are full 9th level casters. Even a paladin has class feature that are level dependent. Smite Evil, Lay on Hands, Channel Energy, Divine Bond as well as spells all scale up as the paladin gains levels. Divine Grace, Aura of Courage, Aura of Resolve, Aura of Faith and Aura of Righteousness are all gained at different levels. In fact there is not a single level where a paladin does not gain something new.
Also a weaker character adding a stronger class may improve the weaker class, but will still be weaker than a single classed character from the stronger class. For example a rogue adding a level of sorcerer or wizard is probably going to improve the rogue, but compared to the single classed spell caster the multiclassed rogue is still behind the power curve.
paladin X/ fighter 4 only worked back in 3.0 and only for weapon spec.
this is pathfinder and while fighter 4 for weapon spec is still viable, as others have said," It just isn't really worth it for a paladin" the side thing though is have a back story with it and even then it might not be worth it.
if you want something different do a prc or add multiple archtypes to your character. This is off course presuming that oath of Vengeance can multi with another archtype. ( note: iirc tempered champion also grants weapon spec and the cost of spells, which is good for me, maybe not for you)
each their own, your mileage may vary and the optional byob
ask your dm if you can take tempered champion with your oath of vengeance
from all looks oov can go with tempered champ, though there is one thing you should need to know about tempered champ, is that you lose all spellcasting for it.
what you gain are:
several of the fighter only feats starting at lvl 4 and at every 4 levels after
the war priest's weapon thing
As I said though, its good for me, maybe not you
tempered champ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
VoodistMonk wrote: Furious Focus, assuming your table has removed its connection to Gorum. What’s the association with Gorum? I don’t see anything about it in the APG.
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