Hi everyone, I'd like to talk about mechanic. I'm currently playing a level 7 Android mechanic with hover drone, we are both proficient with longarms. After 7 level I feel like I don't have any edges over the other classes. Let me explain.
During combat: myself and the drone have roughly a 50% chance to hit an enemy, having currently a +9 and a +10 on the attack bonus. This means ,statistically speaking, that only once in four times, both characters are going to hit. The result is that most of the time, my damage output is just 2d6+7, which is significantly lower than the other members of my party. This means that I have to buy two very expensive weapons just to deal most of the time with a small damage. Plus if the drone is damaged repairing it is very slow.
Outside the combat: this is where the situation gets complicated. Theoretically the mechanic should shine here, in the end he's not a full bab class and his main ability score is intelligence. But this is not what I founded out. My engineering and computer skill bonus are equal to the operative and the technomancer. Yes the mechanic's trick are nice but they are not game changing, and only a few are really good. The drone outside the combat is useless. I can only use it for scout, but if it gets chought its fly speed is just too low to get away. I can't even use it for remote engineering and computer skills since its skill bonus, even when piloted, are really low.
So in the end, during combat I'm irrelevant, outside the combat other members of the party can do what I can do. Is it just me? Or is the class that is bad designed?
Thanks for the attention
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What this has meant for me in Society play is I have a hacker Operative, who only has 14 Intelligence, with a +13 to computers thanks to all of that and the Skill Synergy feat. That's pretty outrageous. While as an operative player I love all the skill power I think they really need to scale back how much of it they get. Instead of SKill Focus in both specialization skills, which is two free feats, give htem Skill Synergy for both of them, which is one feat and not as much of a boost. Additionally they should probably have fewer skill points and probably shouldn't be getting the two free ranks. If you want to be a good operative you'll invest the ranks in your specialization skills yourself.
Just an aside here.
The bonuses for Skill Focus, Skill Synergy, & Operative's Edge are all insight bonuses & as such don't stack.
Personally I agree that the Operative probably should've gotten Skill Synergy with their Specialization skills.
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What this has meant for me in Society play is I have a hacker Operative, who only has 14 Intelligence, with a +13 to computers thanks to all of that and the Skill Synergy feat.
Skill Synergy provides insight bonuses, which don't stack with Operative's edge, nor does it stack with Skill Focus which is an insight bonus as well. For a Hacker specialization Operative which gets Skill Focus (Computers), Skill Synergy (Computers) literally does nothing. Similarly, the insight bonus stays as +3 until level 11, as Operative's edge is equal to or less than the Skill Focus bonus.
At 1st level, a typical 14 Int Hacker's Computer bonus should be: 1 Rank + 3 Class Skill + 3 Insight (Skill focus) + 2 Int = 9. Not sure what level you are, but +13 is more like level 4 (datajack for +1) or 5.
That's pretty outrageous. While as an operative player I love all the skill power I think they really need to scale back how much of it they get. Instead of SKill Focus in both specialization skills, which is two free feats, give htem Skill Synergy for both of them, which is one feat and not as much of a boost.
As it stands, Skill Synergy would become pointless at 3rd level. Unless you're planning on handing out the take 10 ability to Skill Synergy, at which point this becomes a power increase at level 7, as now it only takes 1 feat to get the ability to take 10 in two skills.
I admit Operatives would be completely crazy if all those insight bonuses stacked, but they don't.
During combat: myself and the drone have roughly a 50% chance to hit an enemy, having currently a +9 and a +10 on the attack bonus. This means ,statistically speaking, that only once in four times, both characters are going to hit. The result is that most of the time, my damage output is just 2d6+7, which is significantly lower than the other members of my party. This means that I have to buy two very expensive weapons just to deal most of the time with a small damage. Plus if the drone is damaged repairing it is very slow.
Build choices I would expect on a mechanic that wanted to be good at combat with a drone:
Longarm Proficiency, Versatile Weapon Specialization, Weapon FocusOvercharge Mechanic Trick
Starting Dex of at least 16, Personal Augmentation priority to Dex, then Int.
At 7th this would be Dex 22, and a total to hit of +12 to hit (+5 BAB + 6 Dex + 1 WF). Int would be around 20.
Hover Drone has 18 Dex (16 base +2 ability increase) and +6 BAB at 7th, +10 to hit base. It can take weapon focus and weapon specialization with 2 of its 3 feats, and use 3 of its mods to gain small arms proficiency, then longarm proficiency, then an additional weapons mount, leaving 1 feat and 1 mod left over. This bumps its to-hit to +11.
So I think your to-hit is a bit low if you're only got +9 to-hit on your mechanic at level 7. You will really want weapon focus by level 9, as its becomes +2 to hit at that point.
If you've both got level 6 Corona lasers, then that 2d6+7 vs EAC.
Standard turn I would expect to be:
Mechanic: Standard action to Overcharge your laser rifle and attack once for +12, 3d6+7 (17.5 avg)
Move action to Overcharge your adjacent Drone weapon (or potentially other ally's weapon)
Drone: Standard action attack for +11, 3d6+7 (17.5 avg).
If you downgrade the Drone's rifle to an Azimuth laser rifle, that is still 1d8+1d6+7 (15 avg).
Compare to a Sharpshooter Soldier with maximum dex:
+7 BAB + 6 Dex + 1 Weapon Focus + 1 Laser Accuracy = +15 to hit
Corona Artillery laser does 2d8+7 damage.
So on a full attack (only -3 penalty to a single target) its around:
+12, 2d8+7 (16 avg) twice
If you have to move around, the Mechanic's damage output does drop alot. On the other hand, you've got once a day Miracle worker, which jumps your damage up to: +14, 3d6+9 (19.5 avg) and +11, 1d8+1d6+7 (15 avg).
Admittedly this is dumping a lot of options into combat. All your mechanic feats, 1 out of 3 mechanic tricks, 3 out of 4 drone mods, and 2 out of 3 drone feats. If you do, the damage output is very respectable however.
To compare to a 7th level Operative:
+12 (+2 from Flat footed), 2d4+3+4d8 (26 avg) once.
The Operative is much more mobile while maintaining peak damage, but the Drone Mechanic should be doing a few points more in a good position, significantly less if he needs to move every round. Miracle worker means once per day it should be doing significantly more, or about the same in a bad position (just sit there and take the cover penalty).
Overall it sounds like you have relatively low Dexterity (18 vs 22), no weapon focus on either you or the drone, and don't have overcharge. Leaving the drone with your old weapons as you upgrade is perfectly viable, and will save you a bunch of credits without dropping your damage too much (1d8 vs 2d6 is only 2.5 average points of damage, then at 9th 2d6 vs 3d6 is only 3.5 points of damage, etc).
Drone mechanics I think take a bit more sacrifice and finesse to build if you want to be really good at combat when compared to an Operative or a Soldier. Operative's are basically max Dex, buy a small arm and get Weapon focus. And combat is the Soldier's specialty.
I hadn't realized those were all insight bonuses, that's problematic. That makes me question why they do Skill Focus with Operative's Edge in the same skill if they don't stack.(...)
I answered this in the other thread but I'll throw it in here as well in case anyone's interested:
Gaining Skill Focus at level 1 gives operatives a good skill boost in their niche area at low levels when they need it to to justify being "the skills guy" and land Trick Attacks, but since Skill Focus doesn't stack with Operative's Edge it keeps them from being all-dominant skill monsters down the line. When you reach level 7 and Operative's Edge first overlaps with the skill focus bonus you gain Skill Mastery. Skill Mastery allows you to T10 on any skills you have Skill Focus in, even in combat. This is a really useful ability in its own right. Right out of the gate it means you will always succeed on Trick Attack skill checks, and it also opens up new opportunities down the line. Skill Focus: Piloting is a great option for operative pilots since it means they'll almost never fail a stunt check in Starship Combat, for example.
It's counter-intuitive at first glance and a lot of people miss that they're both Insight bonuses and don't stack, but it works quite well when it "clicks". It would have been nice if they had found a way to avoid the "double insight in one class package" thing though.
Getting back to the topic of Mechanics with drones, it would help if we knew more about your particular build. You've told us the race and drone chassis but not anything that would really give us something to critique.
The drone outside the combat is useless. I can only use it for scout, but if it gets chought its fly speed is just too low to get away. I can't even use it for remote engineering and computer skills since its skill bonus, even when piloted, are really low.
Did you give your drone the Skill Subroutines mod? That would raise it's Int by two. Not a huge change, but every little bit helps!
If you ever need to disarm explosives, you might like that you can do this via a properly built drone. It is unfortunately that it takes one of your mods to be able to do this though.
I have a much lower level Vesk Mechanic with a Combat Drone.
- My findings so far:
- Drones get hit a lot. The Combat Drone DR helps a little bit here, but it still gets hit a lot.
- Repair Drone talent is really useful (almost necessary) here to keep it going.
- I am strongly looking at the Technomantic Dabbler feat at 5th in order to get Mending and Transfer Charge. I really wish it was clearer if Mending worked on drones.
- Drone immunities mean sending it in against poisonous or disease carrying creatures help the whole team. If it is a stupid creature (animal intellect), it can be very nice to intentionally provoke.
- The drone is support. It will not compete with a Soldier, Solarian or Operative in combat.
Given all of the above, I've been using my drone to allow the other characters to do what they are good at. Use it to draw fire since every hit on it is one less on a character. The drone can always be rebuilt cheaply. Use it to draw attacks of opportunity so that the other characters can get at the monsters without having to take the damage. Always consider it expendable.
On Mending:
The target is an object up to 1 bulk. I would expect a combat drone to be bigger than that. On the other hand, the description states "This spell repairs damaged objects and constructs, restoring 1d4 Hit Points." It even goes on to say " A construct can benefit from this spell only once per day. " Why include constructs if it is that limited in size?
If this is a home game that involves a reasonable amount of travel, check with the GM and see if they will allow you to intentionally destroy and rebuild your drone. This would allow you to adapt it to upcoming missions assuming you knew something about the environment you were going into.
Hydrojets are not going to generally be worth a drone upgrade, but if you know you are going to a planet that is mostly covered in water it would be nice to adapt the design. If you knew that you were going to need to infiltrate, a Smuggler's Compartment would be well worthwhile. There are of course other examples where this would be very nice.
The rules do allow you to rebuild the drone between levels, but it would be very nice if you were allowed to swap modifications a little more frequently than that. It isn't clear if destroying the drone allows you to change design decisions or not.
I hope at least some of this helps you!
Ehy, thanks everyone for replies: I was quite busy these days, I'm back to the forum just now!
I already considered combat drone options but its more strength-focused chasis let it fit more on a melee build and in my (humble) opionion drones don't have enough hit point to go melee. Hover drone remains competitive with combat drone in terms of average damage if equipped with longarms so i preferred that option. Regarding overcharge, it is perhaps a good option but it seems to me not so intersting: I'll try to change my mind about this.
Anyway my build, as I planned it so far is the following:
for my character
Race: Android
Theme: Pilot
Initial Abilities: STR 10, DEX 16, COS 11, INT 18, WIS 10, CHA 8
Ability increaser: 5° - STR, DEX, COS, INT
10° - STR, DEX, COS, INT
15° - DEX, COS, WIS, INT
20° - COS, INT, WIS, CHAR
Feats
1° - Weapon proficiency (longarms)
3° - Versatile specialization
5° - Improved initiative
7° - Kick up
9° - Deadly aim
11° - Weapon proficiency (heavy weapons)
13° - Weapon focus (heavy weapons)
15° -
17° - Penetratin attack
19° -
Mechanic Tricks
2° - Repair Drone
4° - Energy shield
6° - Hack directory
8° - Boost shield
10° - Overclocking
12° - Hyperclocking
14° - Resistant energy
16° - Ghost intrusion
18° - Saboteur
20° - Improved resistant energy
For my drone
1° - Weapon focus (small arms)
3° - Versatile specialization
6° - Versatile focus
9° -
11° - Deadly aim
13° -
15° -
17° - Penetratin attack
19° -
MODS (initial mods: flight system (x2) and weapon mount)
1° - Weapon mount
3° - weapon proficiency (longarms)
5° - Enhanced armor
7° - Resistance
9° - Armor slot
11° - Enhanced armor
13° - Energy shield
15° - Reductive plating
17° - Energy shield
19° - Invisibility field
If you have any suggestion, please let me know. As I told you, so far I have been pretty eclipsed by my Operative buddy both in combat and out of it and I'm afraid that this will not change in future.
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If you have any suggestion, please let me know. As I told you, so far I have been pretty eclipsed by my Operative buddy both in combat and out of it and I'm afraid that this will not change...
If you're trying to keep your drone relevant throughout the higher levels, I feel like utilizing explode weapons is really the only way to make up for a low base attack, low dex, and low number of actions.
Unfortunately only the combat chassis is capable of making the Strength requirement.As for the operative of the party: emphasize your ranged hacking and tricks for Computers, and keep all of your technology skills up to date. Being the "tech guy" should give you plenty of opportunities to outshine his jack-of-all-trades approach. Unfortunately, it isn't hard for an operative to excel in combat, but with an emphasis on heavy weapons you'll shine when combat provides a plethora of foes.
Also... Deadly Aim is a trap.
Race: Android
Theme: Pilot
Initial Abilities: STR 10, DEX 16, COS 11, INT 18, WIS 10, CHA 8
Ability increaser: 5° - STR, DEX, COS, INT
10° - STR, DEX, COS, INT
15° - DEX, COS, WIS, INT
20° - COS, INT, WIS, CHAR
If you have any suggestion, please let me know. As I told you, so far I have been pretty eclipsed by my Operative buddy both in combat and out of it and I'm afraid that this will not change...
Given at 7th level you've got a +9 to hit, 18 base Dex, and no weapon focus, that implies to me you put your +2 upgrade into Int and haven't gotten around to getting the +4 personal upgrade yet (or got +4 Int and haven't gotten +2 Dex yet).
I take it the Operative is also playing an Android or other Dex/Int race? Otherwise, you presumably should be doing better on the skill rolls than the Operative in computers and engineering rather than equal. You should pull ahead by 1 at 9th, and another 1 at 10th (again assuming Operative Android with 18 Dex/16 Int starting).
I'm thinking your Engineering skill roll should be higher than the Technomancer's unless he took skill focus: Engineering (or Lashunta who applied student to engineering).
Even at 7th, your Hack Directory Mechanic trick should make you the hacker of choice at this level, and Remote Hack literally lets you disarm traps with Computer or Engineering from 30 feet away, possibly in complete safety.
Your drone should also be aiding another (move action to give it a standard action while you still have your standard action) to use your skill ranks, for an additional +2 to computers/engineering or any other skill you have where it makes sense.
Overcharge is the Mechanic's "trick attack" if you keep it up to date. Its usable up to twice per round (standard action for you, move action to apply to an adjacent ally or drone).
Best case Mechanic Overcharge vs Operative trick attack damage
2nd: +2d6 vs +1d4
3rd: +2d6 vs +1d8
5th +2d6 vs +3d8
7th +2d6 vs +4d8
8th +4d6 vs +4d8
9th +4d6 vs +5d8
11th +4d6 vs +6d8
13th +4d6 vs +7d8
14th +8d6 vs +7d8
15th +8d6 vs +8d8
16th +10d6 vs +8d8
17th +10d6 vs +9d8
18th +12d6 vs +9d8
19th +12d6 vs +10d8
20th +14d6 vs +10d8
Thats not even taking into account the Mechanic using a longarms for level/2 more damage on top of the larger weapon dice.
Admittedly Overcharge, goes through charges like water, but a typical battery powered laser longarm should still have 13 straight rounds of fire before needing to reload even at triple power consumption.
Thats potentially true of a Drone or Exocortex Mechanic. Also works on Unwieldy weapons or AoE weapons. If you want to be better offensively as a mechanic, its probably the best Mechanic trick. Full attack on an Exocortex possibly means you don't need to get Overcharge, but even then it provides a bit more punch when moving or using unwieldy weapons.
I notice your Mechanic build is very defensive. The operative is going to be doing a fair bit more damage, but your build can take far more damage.
Given the Operative is tied in Computers and Engineering, I'm assuming the Operative started with 18 Dex/10 Con/16 Int. At best they've got 12 Con right now, like you.
You've got 49 stamina + 46 hp + 12 hp shield + 70 hp drone = 177 effective hit points
The Operative probably has 49 stamina + 46 hp = 95 hit points
Between you and your drone, you can absorb nearly twice as much damage as the operative. When you spend a resolve point and 10 minutes, you potentially get 49 + 12 + 17 = 78 effective hit points back. The operative gets back 49.
At 8th this become even more silly, as you double your shield hit point nearly double going to 22. And your Drone gets another 10 hit points, increase its healing to 20 per resolve point.
I presume you put your drone in front of yourself to get soft cover and go prone (given you have kip up), getting the +8 AC bonus against ranged? If they damage your drone, you then swap positions, putting yourself in front, to spread damage? Its EAC/KAC of 11+4+6+2 = 23 seems solid compared to the Operative's likely 23 EAC/24 KAC. Miracle worker lets you pump that up to 25 for a single fight if you need it. Eventually once you get Hyperclocking, the Drone gets evasion which makes AoE attacks much less useful against the both of you.
Kinda surprised you didn't take Bodyguard with this kind of build. With the drone in front of you providing soft cover, you prone, you could give up 2 AC of your 32 vs Ranged [10+5 (Dex) +9 (Armor) +4 (Cover) + 4 (prone)] to increase the drone's AC by another 2 as a reaction. If you go as far as "In Harm's Way" you could more evenly split up damage onto your stamina and shield as well as the Drone's shield and hit points.
I also agree with Over 9000, Deadly aim most of the time is a trap. Useful only against significantly lower AC enemies when you have a high to-hit. If your to-hit is only +9 at level 7, its not going to be worth it. Its a maybe on a ranged laser focused Soldier with +15 to hit at level 7.
The only build that I've found Deadly Aim to be worthwhile so far in is the Sharpshooter Soldier that gets Laser Accuracy, Weapon Focus (sniper), and uses the laser sniper rifle. You are sitting at +2 of normal max Attack Bonus, you're firing at EAC, and only suffer effective -2 instead of -4 for shooting into cover, so you're just about even with a normal shot when using Deadly Aim.
Speaking of which, Overcharge on the Diaspora Sniper Rifle is fantastic. You can't full attack with a sniper rifle anyway, and even the level 1 gun has 10 charges, so you can still fire three times on Overcharge before slapping in a new battery. Yeah you need soldier levels or a burned feat or three to get it, but that is a significant damage boost.
I also like Technomantic Dabbler at 5th for a Mechanic for Supercharge Weapon and the ability to transfer charges between batteries with a cantrip. Supercharge Weapon + Overcharge = +5d6 damage at 5th level at the cost of 2 standard actions (bonus if you can cast it just before battle starts).
Thank you all guys, especially Hiruma Kai that was really exhaustive!
I will consider overcharge. It may change something, especially because I'm going to take heavy (and unwieldy) arms.
Consider that heavy weapons are good on Drones as well, and when using them, Combat and Hover Drones will have the same chance to hit because of the minimum strength penalty.
Combat Drones are the best Heavy Weapon users and they can wield them by level 3.
Overcharge will work with the Plasma Explode weapons. There's an argument to be made for it to work with Line weapons as well, since Overcharge is it's own action that effects the item and not the attack. But discuss it with your DM. At our table we decided it would be fine for the extra d6 to effect the first enemy hit in the line, dissipating to normal weapon damage to those behind it.