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Since I think it's pretty certain that the next class preview on Monday will be either Cleric or Wizard, with the other to be the following week, I'm thinking of ways Cleric casting can be changed to be more flavorful. A lot of people agree that Clerics just getting access to the entire Divine spell list to freely prepare from at the start of the day is kind of gross and overpowered, while also diluting their flavor. It's the Generalist Wizard problem where they just have access to all the best spells without restriction or flavor ties.
I still like 2E's cleric Spheres. I still feel that was one of the few areas where 3E actually made things considerably worse compared to 2E instead of improving on the system. I believe that can be captured again, and there's a few potential ways of doing that, whether they are still called Domains or go back to being called Spheres.
Pretty much all of these ideas would presume that the Cleric gets to pick a few domains from those available to their deity / philosophy and not just one like 5E. They have to have something to trade away for archetypes, after all. I'd also prefer that domains have more than just one spell at each circle (spell level), but that's not strictly required for these to work.
The Oracle Model: The Oracle is a better Cleric, so maybe just let it be a better Cleric. In this model, the Cleric just uses the Oracle's spellcasting model, the "divine Sorcerer" approach. Spells from the Cleric's chosen domains are bonus spells known.
If the Oracle still exists as a class, the Oracle is the one to use prepared spellcasting, instead of spontaneous casting. This fits way better thematically anyway - an Oracle is, after all, supposed to be someone who sees the future.
The Warmage+Shai'ir Model: This one's actually closer to how things are now, just done more flavorfully. The cleric just flat out knows the spells in their domains, like a sorcerer's spells known. They also learn a few spells of their choice outside their domains as they level up, like the Advanced Learning of the 3.x Warmage. These spells are always known and do not have to be prepared, and can be cast freely with the cleric's available spell slots.
The cleric gets some flexibility on top of this. When they need something beyond their abilities, they can pray for the spell they need a certain number of times per day. When their deity('s servants) respond to the prayer, this spell becomes prepared for the cleric in one of these limited daily slots. If the spell is from one of their deity's other domains that the cleric didn't pick, they get it the next round; otherwise, they get it 1-10 minutes later and it also costs 2 of the daily slots. This is so the cleric can't just get something out of their deity's theme in the middle of combat, and it costs them for going for these out-of-theme spells.
The Words of Power Model: This extends on the theme of "pray for your miracles" - Cleric casting becomes both more flexible in the moment and less flexible in the abstract. Their deity('s servants) or the philosophical underpinnings of the universe are more responsive to their prayers, instead of having to prepare ahead of time like a hermetic Wizard.
Cleric spells, per se, aren't a thing. Instead, the Words of Power optional subsystem from PF1 is redone and beefed up to replace Cleric casting. The Cleric gets "Words" from their chosen domains, and can pick a few more "Words" of their choice from the general list as they level up on top of those granted by their domains. The Cleric prays for whatever they want when they need it, using the "Words" available to them to assemble prayer-spells on the fly.
I'd recommend "spell points" for the Cleric in this event, but spell slots could potentially still work like in PF1.
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I like pretty much everything going on here, the more they can differentiate the full casters through more than just spell lists the better.
No I want oracles and clerics please dont mix.
No I want oracles and clerics please dont mix.
Thematically though, it makes more sense for the Oracle to be the one who prepares spells. They are the class that from their very name is supposed to have more foresight. They are the class who actually make sense to be based on Wisdom instead of Charisma.
Meanwhile, not a single Cleric ability or thematic is based on Wisdom, other than their legacy casting. They're more gish than the Oracle, and feel more like they should have the spontaneous casting.
Switch them then I dont care. I just want them both.
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The fact that the Cleric has a whole bunch of other jobs beyond spellcasting (depending which style of Cleric you want to play) means that I'd be very happy to see them become spontaneous (Sorcerer-style) casters. Thematically and mechanically, it's just right. Let the Wizard be the true owner of prepared spells, and all the complexity involved there.
I'd then be happy to see an Oracle class that's closer to a Witch: they have some spellcasting but they also have a signature ability that controls the battlefield.
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The argument/moan about clerics knowing all their spell list... etc has always had one big flaw..... there are a load of spells on the list that nobody ever uses.
Have you ever noticed how pretty much every cleric always ends up preparing the same spells (domains aside)?.... Its no coincedence.
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No I want oracles and clerics please dont mix.Thematically though, it makes more sense for the Oracle to be the one who prepares spells. They are the class that from their very name is supposed to have more foresight. They are the class who actually make sense to be based on Wisdom instead of Charisma.
Meanwhile, not a single Cleric ability or thematic is based on Wisdom, other than their legacy casting. They're more gish than the Oracle, and feel more like they should have the spontaneous casting.
Domains are frequently WIS based in their powers...
And Oracles are much easier to play gish with.... Battle Oracles >>> Battle Cleric every time
People always forget with Oracles that they do not in any way have to be worshippers. They receive their powers whether they like it or not.... there is no prayer requirement. Clerics have to prey and worship.... an Oracle could be a complete atheist and it wouldnt matter!
The fact that cleric have to prey for their spells by default pushes them into prepared territory.
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Whatever system I would like to see a stronger connection to the holy symbol and to the Domains. I like the archaicness of the faiths.
The Abhorsen bells, the reliquaries of the church..
I still valid the standard three magical attributes where intelligence is the skill of manipulating magic, wisdom is the resilience and aptitude to channel the magic of greater Powers, and Charisma is the force needed to shive magic around directly.
That being said, I think that the Witch is an excellent model for what I'd like the new cleric to be like. I'd love for them to have a choice of powers based on their Domains that work similarly to hexes, a narrower selection of spells based mostly on those domains (plus a small, universal list), and some form of turn/channel ability. Of course, this is similar to what we have now, but I think the execution could be completely different than the core cleric.
I'd also like them to be pushed a bit away from being official clergy and more towards the Oracle flavor of being direct and active agents, not necessarily also having to be administrators and officials.
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I've always favored the Warmage model for Clerics, narrow base spell list + Domains + Advanced Learning.
But the addition of the Sha'ir makes that perfect.
No I want oracles and clerics please dont mix.Thematically though, it makes more sense for the Oracle to be the one who prepares spells. They are the class that from their very name is supposed to have more foresight. They are the class who actually make sense to be based on Wisdom instead of Charisma.
Meanwhile, not a single Cleric ability or thematic is based on Wisdom, other than their legacy casting. They're more gish than the Oracle, and feel more like they should have the spontaneous casting.
Seeing as how Oracles are given their powers against their will, it makes sense they have what they have and can't prepare. Seeing as how a cleric prays for what he needs from day to day, it makes sense he prepares spells.
The argument/moan about clerics knowing all their spell list... etc has always had one big flaw..... there are a load of spells on the list that nobody ever uses.
Have you ever noticed how pretty much every cleric always ends up preparing the same spells (domains aside)?.... Its no coincedence.
That's not really the issue. The issue is, every cleric has access to every spell, including every niche spell that no one would ever normally bother to learn otherwise, and can pull it out of his hat if he has about 8 hours notice.
But, even more importantly, it means that the Cleric class becomes more or less directly more powerful/flexible every time a new splatbook comes out with Cleric spells in it. No other class has that (Except Druid). If Paizo releases a new Wizard splatbook, the Wizard you already have in play doesn't become more powerful unless you take the time and effort to actually learn the spells from it (which takes the place of spells you would have learned from the core book otherwise.) The Cleric's player can just glance at his splatbook and say "Oh sweet guys, I can totally do this cool thing now that I couldn't do yesterday. Hang on let me just rest once and I'll bust it out."
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One potential danger is accidentally introducing an "optimal" deity. I don't want to suddenly see dozens of cleric of Horus because he happens to have all the best domains.
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Personally I think Clerics should have "prayer books" that let them do arcanist-style casting.
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All prepared classes should have arcanist style casting, it's just so much nicer to use than worrying about how many times rather than what you can do.