So, I had an idea for a slayer, ive played them in the past and its one of my favorite classes but I have never built one thats......a true blue assassin? I really want to utilize the Stygian Slayers invisibility and the assassinate ability the slayer can get to make a super stealthy "sneak up and stab them to death" kind of character because it just sounds so absolutely fun. Ive got 20 point buy to build this character and was thinking human with reactionary and the heirloom weapon trait (for saw tooth saber)
I thought the best way to do this might be by using ranger combat style to get two weapon fighting feats, grabbing the dirty trick feat line and using my remaining feat to some how make my stealth better? Id love some suggestions. My remaining slayer talents were going to be used for the stealth abilities from the rogue talent section. Does this sound viable? And, does anyone have any ideas for stat alotment here?
Generally speaking, TWF is underwhelming in my experience.
Also keep in mind you don't get Greater Invisibility, so you will only normally get 1 sneak attack from invisibility.
You don't get any sort of death attack either.
What I would strongly suggest is using the some effect to create fog or mist and one of the items that allows you to see through the fog.
Go for a death in the fog type deal.
Claxon wrote: Generally speaking, TWF is underwhelming in my experience.
Also keep in mind you don't get Greater Invisibility, so you will only normally get 1 sneak attack from invisibility.
You don't get any sort of death attack either.
What I would strongly suggest is using the some effect to create fog or mist and one of the items that allows you to see through the fog.
Go for a death in the fog type deal.
Death attack? Is "Assassinate" Not a "death attack"? You sneak attack them, if they fail the save....they die.....thats it....
If not twf what would you suggest rather for high fast and consistent damage?
greater invisibility is part of why I wanted the stygian slayer as I can use wands, staffs, scrolls, etc to give me that extra invisibility. The fog isnt the most interesting idea ive ever heard but ive considered it and its doable with some enchanted goggles and a fog wand.
Sorry I looked at the archetype, and also looked at the class listing on d20 but when I searched for assassinate or death attack nothing came up. Because they moved talents to their own separate pages. Mea culpa.
For consistent damage you really only need a strength score and power attack with a two-handed weapon. A twf sneak attacker can do more damage, when they can pull off the sneak attack. But in my experience it's not often that you get to pull off full round sneak attacks until level 10+ when the feat chains that can enable it finally do so. Well, I guess on a slayer it's not as bad because you have full BAB, so things like Improved Two Weapon Feint will be available earlier but it's super feat intensive.
Greater Invisibility isn't on the Stygian Slayer's list of spells that it counts as being able to use, that's what I was saying. Heck, regular invisibility isn't even on the list.
Quote: At 7th level, a stygian slayer is able to use spell completion and spell trigger items as if he were an arcane caster with these spells on his spell list: darkness, forced quiet, modify memory, nondetection, obscuring mist, phantom steed, shadow walk, and wizard spells of the illusion school of spell level 0 through 4th. The slayer’s uses his class level as his caster level for this ability. Fortunately, obscuring mist (for fog) is.
Claxon wrote: Sorry I looked at the archetype, and also looked at the class listing on d20 but when I searched for assassinate or death attack nothing came up. Because they moved talents to their own separate pages. Mea culpa.
For consistent damage you really only need a strength score and power attack with a two-handed weapon. A twf sneak attacker can do more damage, when they can pull off the sneak attack. But in my experience it's not often that you get to pull off full round sneak attacks until level 10+ when the feat chains that can enable it finally do so. Well, I guess on a slayer it's not as bad because you have full BAB, so things like Improved Two Weapon Feint will be available earlier but it's super feat intensive.
Greater Invisibility isn't on the Stygian Slayer's list of spells that it counts as being able to use, that's what I was saying. Heck, regular invisibility isn't even on the list.
Quote: At 7th level, a stygian slayer is able to use spell completion and spell trigger items as if he were an arcane caster with these spells on his spell list: darkness, forced quiet, modify memory, nondetection, obscuring mist, phantom steed, shadow walk, and wizard spells of the illusion school of spell level 0 through 4th. The slayer’s uses his class level as his caster level for this ability. Fortunately, obscuring mist (for fog) is.
Its no trouble.
I see what you mean a little but the slayer is the best out of the box twf out there anyway. Full BAB and access to the ranger combat styles to get the feats for it for free with reduced requirements. My reason for dirty trick was to help me get sneak attacks over and over for full rounds.
Actually, both invisibility and greater are on the stygian slayers list. "and wizard spells of the illusion school of spell level 0 through 4th." invisibility is a 2nd level wizard illusion spell and greater is a 4th.
First of all, the Heirloom Weapon trait applies to ONE SPECIFIC weapon, so a single Sawtooth Sabre, not both.
I suggest you build your character as a classic TWF crit-fisher, with high strength (not hindered by Dex requirements), Power Attack and Studied Target to build up damage, and kukris to get ultimately a 15-20 threat range. Sneak attack will be a nice addition to the damage when you can pull it off, but otherwise it should not be your priority, since you have other, and more solid, ways to deal damage. Include eventually fogs (via items or spells) + a Goz Mask or darkness*, but I wouldn't spend feats on that (*for this purpose, consider of course a race with Darkvision. Humans with the Dimdweller alternate racial trait get it, plus other bonuses, in place of skilled, which to your 6+Int skill points per level is quite overkill).
Gray Warden wrote: First of all, the Heirloom Weapon trait applies to ONE SPECIFIC weapon, so a single Sawtooth Sabre, not both.
I suggest you build your character as a classic TWF crit-fisher, with high strength (not hindered by Dex requirements), Power Attack and Studied Target to build up damage, and kukris to get ultimately a 15-20 threat range. Sneak attack will be a nice addition to the damage when you can pull it off, but otherwise it should not be your priority, since you have other, and more solid, ways to deal damage. Include eventually fogs (via items or spells) + a Goz Mask or darkness*, but I wouldn't spend feats on that (*for this purpose, consider oourse a race with Darkvision. Humans with the Dimdweller alternate racial trait get it, plus other bonuses, in place of skilled, which to your 6+Int skill points per level is quite overkill).
What do you mean "one specific weapon" Are you telling me that even though the trait specifies that you MUST PURCHASE this item, you are only proficient with that one and only weapon not a second that is COMPLETELY IDENTICAL to it? because if so i feel as though you might simply be interpreting that in a way thats a little unreasonable. that being the case id rather simply drop twf all together as I simply dont roll well and crit fishing wont get me far. I get a nat 20 once every 5 or more sessions simply due to the fact taht im incredibly unlucky. That, and simply, kukris dont fit the vision of the character i had in mind *shrug* though i will happily take everything else mentioned into consideration, especially dimdweller.
Hm...maybe ive been reading another version of this trait as when I look at it now on d20 i see the "specific weapon" requirement, wow that seems incredibly unreasonable but alright. Well that takes the wind out of my sailes a bit. How aggravating. Ill simply have to use my first feat for the proficiency then I suppose.
ViConstantine wrote: that being the case id rather simply drop twf all together as I simply dont roll well and crit fishing wont get me far. I get a nat 20 once every 5 or more sessions simply due to the fact taht im incredibly unlucky. That, and simply, kukris dont fit the vision of the character i had in mind *shrug* though i will happily take everything else mentioned into consideration, especially dimdweller. Lol, you know that "being unlucky" is not actually a thing, right? The more attacks you roll (TWF, haste, iteratives), and the bigger your threat range is, the higher are your chances to threaten a crit. It's not a matter of luck, it's just statistics.
About the sabers instead of kukris, you can always describe them as sabers if that fits your character better. You don't need mechanics to implement roleplay aspects of your game.
The real issue you will have is more of a meta issue than a particular fault with the build. The game doesn't really deal well with the assassin concept, not so much the ability to get off a death attack, but in how the game is going to actually function.
You sneak ahead of your party, find a room with bad guys in it, kill one with a death attack, yay you! Now though you are facing a room with a CR for your entire party (-1 creature) for probably a couple rounds while your group rushes up to support you.
Alternately, you make your way to the lair of the big bad. You sneak up and dispatch the solo boss all by yourself, Yay you. The rest of the party, feeling useless and like they didn't have any fun decides that next week they'll just go to a movie instead of playing the game.
Making an assassin type character that functions well in a team game is really tough. And that will probably be more important than good TWF or a great death attack.
Dave Justus wrote: The real issue you will have is more of a meta issue than a particular fault with the build. The game doesn't really deal well with the assassin concept, not so much the ability to get off a death attack, but in how the game is going to actually function.
You sneak ahead of your party, find a room with bad guys in it, kill one with a death attack, yay you! Now though you are facing a room with a CR for your entire party (-1 creature) for probably a couple rounds while your group rushes up to support you.
Alternately, you make your way to the lair of the big bad. You sneak up and dispatch the solo boss all by yourself, Yay you. The rest of the party, feeling useless and like they didn't have any fun decides that next week they'll just go to a movie instead of playing the game.
Making an assassin type character that functions well in a team game is really tough. And that will probably be more important than good TWF or a great death attack.
I understand what you mean completely. Though my party consists of 2-3 people most weeks at a home table. When we have a stealth dedicated character we usually handle it all the same way. Party talks about situation, decides if it should be dealt with with stealth or rushing and acts accordingly. Because there are so few of us, we generally coordinate really well so it gives us lots of room for character ideas. Though we all still compete for viable damage haha.
I agree with Grey Warden strength TWF build. I tend to include power attack on the build. It is not an alway on thing but if you have a low ac target you turn it on. If you can not get sneak attack having the option to two hand power attack with a great sword is a great back up plan for elementals.
The slayer even has a special great sword that at higher levels makes a great backup weapon.
Headsman’s Blade is a +1 keen great sword that counts as a +3 verses studied targets, that boosts the dcs of assassinate.
Grandlounge wrote: I agree with Grey Warden strength TWF build. I tend to include power attack on the build. It is not an alway on thing but if you have a low ac target you turn it on. If you can not get sneak attack having the option to two hand power attack with a great sword is a great back up plan for elementals.
The slayer even has a special great sword that at higher levels makes a great backup weapon.
Headsman’s Blade is a +1 keen great sword that counts as a +3 verses studied targets, that boosts the dcs of assassinate.
Wow, i never knew about the headsman blade! Thats awesome! I think ill make a point to put it on the slayer im currently playing which is actually a 2h slayer build so that works out great! Thanks for that. I might consider adding it to this character just for the assassinate dc boost. Im unsure how ill fit in power attack into this build but it looks like this so far.
this includes the extra feat for being human and all the feats from the ranger combat style
Exotic prof: sawtooth saber (because i much prefer this weapon over kukris, 1d4 and only mildy higher crit rate than the sabers after feat addition just isnt worth it at all to me)
Dirty fighting (so i can qualify for dirty trick feats without needing 13 int)
two weapon fighting
extra slayer talent (For fast stealth)
Improved dirty trick
improved two weapon fighting
greater dirty trick
quick dirty trick
extra slayer talent (for assassinate)
two weapon rend (because its so much better than greater two weapon)
two weapon feint
accomplished sneak attacker
(empty feat)
(empty feat)
I need to work in quick draw in here somewhere but im unsure where.
Underhanded Trick form blood of the shadows is worth a look. It's just a better version of improved dirty trick. The blindness lasts longer.
I can't tell from your posts are you playing a human and have you accounted for the extra slayer talent from FCB.
Grandlounge wrote: Underhanded Trick form blood of the shadows is worth a look. It's just a better version of improved dirty trick. The blindness lasts longer.
I can't tell from your posts are you playing a human and have you accounted for the extra slayer talent from FCB.
I am playing a human, though i havnt decided if im going to use the fcb or not for extra talents because the hp might be really useful. i need help making the stats for this on 20 pnt buy but if we can get a stat line together, i may be able to swing those fcb for extra talents and use the feats i used to get those original talents. I can use those feats instead for power attack and quick draw.
Currently the stats look like
16str (after human +2)
16dex
13con (it will be my first bonus stat)
12 int (so i can get some kind of bonus to the assassinate dc)
10 wis
10 cha
ViConstantine wrote: Currently the stats look like
16str (after human +2)
16dex
13con (it will be my first bonus stat)
12 int (so i can get some kind of bonus to the assassinate dc)
10 wis
10 cha
I'd go 16+2 14 14 12 10 8. You get overall a +1 to hit and +1 damage per attack (so +2 if both attacks hit)
I like gary wardens stats but I would put the 12 in wisdom rather than int. 9 skill points are enough for me on this build. Any increase to perception and will is great.
Grandlounge wrote: I like gary wardens stats but I would put the 12 in wisdom rather than int. 9 skill points are enough for me on this build. Any increase to perception and will is great.
I think gray warden had more or less the same idea as me with the 12 in int as the slayer benefits in class abilities by having some form of int modifier. I'll of course take a trait to increase my Will save and if I can fit iron will somewhere late in the build then I'll take it. Dim dweller should give me a passive plus 2 to perception so I'm not worried about a skill I'm sure I'll increase each level anyway.
Gray Warden wrote: ViConstantine wrote: Currently the stats look like
16str (after human +2)
16dex
13con (it will be my first bonus stat)
12 int (so i can get some kind of bonus to the assassinate dc)
10 wis
10 cha
I'd go 16+2 14 14 12 10 8. You get overall a +1 to hit and +1 damage per attack (so +2 if both attacks hit) Hmmm, I see. At this rate if we are dumping charisma, is it not beneficial enough to go 16+2 15 14 12 10 7 and throw my first star up into dex as dex will still be very important to the stygian slayer as stealth, init, and ac all bank on it with my light armor and no shield restrictions.
Those stats are the ones I have on my higher level slayer. Curious which abilities you are saving intelligence for? I can think of master slayer at level 20 and assassinate. 10/12 int I would consider too low to count on use assassinate. If that is the goal, I would work on building towards that but fair warning it is tough to make it work.
My 'assassinate" would be full attacking from greater invisibility from a Staff of Stealth (if you have someone that can charge it for you).
Claxon wrote: For consistent damage you really only need a strength score and power attack with a two-handed weapon. A twf sneak attacker can do more damage, when they can pull off the sneak attack. But in my experience it's not often that you get to pull off full round sneak attacks until level 10+ when the feat chains that can enable it finally do so. Well, I guess on a slayer it's not as bad because you have full BAB, so things like Improved Two Weapon Feint will be available earlier but it's super feat intensive. Yeah, but it is not exactly an 'either/or' situation with slayers or rangers. They are do str based TWF, which means they can use things other than finesse weapons.
That means they can use double weapons or some weird weapon combos.
Double weapons can do 2 handed or TWF as needed. They usually don't have great stats, but you have access to a few basic ones that suffice without going into exotic weapons- the weighted spear is not amazing (it is a spear with a light mace taped to it, basically), but it works.
The weird combos are usually a mix of a 1 handed weapon with some weapon that doesn't necessarily stop 2 handing- similar to double weapons in practice. Gauntlet type weapons are an example (just take your hand off of your sword and punch with it), and quick draw shields work do with investment (quick draw so you can stow it away as a free action). This method is fairly usefull, since it means you can use the cool weapons you find (long swords are fairly common), you can get decent stats (scimitar for 18-20, cestus for 19-20), and other various advantages (quick draw shields for cheap AC).
The problem with the weird weapon combos is that they do not play well with weapon specific feats like weapon focus. Double weapons work better with feats.
Sidenote- I personally like the sword+cestus combo. It has a nice brawl-ish feel. ... if you want to go really 'weird', you could use a heavy shield as your 1 handed weapon and the cestus as the light weapon.
So what exactly is the benefit of double weapons over regular old weapons for twf?
All of lemeres options seem to be about switching easily between twf and two handed combat styles. I usually recommend these ideas, especially with a shield.
Shield cestus - Grab your shield with two hands to switch.
Double - hit with both ends or either end two-handed
Grandlounge wrote: All of lemeres options seem to be about switching easily between twf and two handed combat styles. I usually recommend these ideas, especially with a shield.
Shield cestus - Grab your shield with two hands to switch.
Double - hit with both ends or either end two-handed
The Stygian however, isnt capable of wielding any shields.
They were general examples of switching to illustrate the idea of going from one hand to two.
Anyone can pick up shield proficiency. Shields are a good way to wield a weapon and have much better AC. Normally 1 feat gives you +1 ac a shield can do a lot more. It's not for every build but it's worth considering.
Grandlounge wrote: They were general examples of switching to illustrate the idea of going from one hand to two.
Anyone can pick up shield proficiency. Shields are a good way to wield a weapon and have much better AC. Normally 1 feat gives you +1 ac a shield can do a lot more. It's not for every build but it's worth considering.
ive actually considered rather than a shield, simply going with the feat that gives me medium armor proficiency back so i can get a breast plate at some point.
ViConstantine wrote: Grandlounge wrote: All of lemeres options seem to be about switching easily between twf and two handed combat styles. I usually recommend these ideas, especially with a shield.
Shield cestus - Grab your shield with two hands to switch.
Double - hit with both ends or either end two-handed
The Stygian however, isnt capable of wielding any shields. Yeah, but you can still get sword+cestus, or a double weapon (weighted spear is simple, and the monk's spade is martial.
The advantage over regular TWF? You can two hand during the turns when you can't full attack, or when you use AoOs.
It is certainly worth looking at during the lower levels- when full attacks are not as common.
I would grab the armor master trait and mithril breastplate or use mithril kikko armor.
To the two handing idea. It is the reason I play TWF slayers because I don't have to worry about feinting, circling mongoose, or dirty trick when I don't have a flank. I can also get through DR easier, and I can also do damage to incorporeal more easily.
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