I need someone to check my math on DPR. I'm not sure if I did something wrong, but it just doesn't pass the sniff test. I made this post on another thread regarding a Slayer. I did a mock-up test run with rolling actual dice and I recorded all the dice rolls, but my DPR calc was much higher than what I rolled.
.
"This is my Slayer :) AoE Sneak Attack because of Shatter Defenses and Cleave/Imp Cleaving Finish with a Spring-loaded 2h custom weapon that can attack 5ft or 10ft
15pt buy - lvl 12 Human Slayer
Str 13
Dex 21(+2human, +3level)
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 10
Weapon is:
3dp: weapon finesse
3dp: 19-20 crit
3dp: 2d4 dmg
1dp: reach
2dp: spring loaded
Enchants:
Cruel (+1)
Culling (+2)
Agile (+1)
Skills:
Stealth (Max)
Intimidate (Max)
Traits:
Dangerously Curious - for UMD so I can use wands and scrolls
Child of the Moon - +1, +2 or +4 Stealth, depending on the Moon Cycle.
Lvl1 Weapon Finesse, Human Bonus feat: Skill Focus: Stealth
Lvl2 Ranger Combat Style: Cleave
Lvl3 Power Attack
Lvl4 Rogue Talent: Weapon Focus (Flying Spiked Aspergillum)
Lvl5 Cleaving Finish
Lvl6 Ranger Combat Style: Great Cleave & FCB1/6 Defensive Study
Lvl7 Improved Cleaving Finish
Lvl8 Combat Trick: Dazzling Display, Human bonus feat: Skill Focus: Intimidate
Lvl9 Shatter Defenses
Lvl10 Advanced Rogue Feat: Cornugon Smash
Lvl11 Improved Critical
Lvl12 Twist the Knife & FCB1/6 Feat: Furious Focus
Hit: 12BAB, 5dex, +1 WeapFocus, -0PA, +3 Enchantment = +21 to hit (+3 Studied Target)
Dmg: 2d4 +5Agile +8PA, +4PA (2h), +3 Enchantment = 2d4+20 (+3 Studied Target) +2d6 (Culling) +4d6 (Sneak Attack vs. Flat-footed)
AC: 10 + 5dex + 3 Studded Leather (+3 enchantment) + 1 Buckler (+3 Enchantment) = 25 AC (+3 Studied Target)
Stealth: 5dex + 12SkillRanks + 3ClassSkill + 6SkillFocus + 1to4 ChildOfTheMoon Trait = +27-30 Stealth (+3 Studied Target)
Intimidate: 0Cha + 12SkillRanks + 3ClassSkill + 6SkillFocus = +21 Intimidate (+3 Studied Target)
.
Let's say I'm facing 5 targets and they're all within my 10ft Cleave range. A standard lvl 12 mob has an AC of 27 and 160 HP, and I have a +21 to hit (or a +24 to hit Studied Target). Once the mob loses their dex to AC, I’m going to assume a -4 to AC (so 23 FF AC)
In the first round, I Swift Study one, Move Study another, and Cleave. After one round of Cleave, lets assume I hit them all, and all my targets are now Flat-footed, Shaken, and Sickened. In round 2, I swift Study a third target and Cleave again.
First round DPR:
3x (0.55*(((2.5*2)+20)+(3.5*2)+(0.2*(2.5*2)+20)*3)
2x (0.70*(((2.5*2)+23)+(3.5*2)+(0.2*(2.5*2)+23)*3)
So:
3x (0.55*32)+(0.2*(25)*3)= 17.6+15 = 32.6dpr x 3 unstudied non-flat-footed mobs
2x (0.70*35)+(0.2*(28)*3)= 24.5+16.8= 41.3dpr x 2 studied non-flat-footed mobs
Second round DPR:
2x (0.70*(((2.5*2)+20)+(3.5*2)+(3.5*4)+(0.2*(2.5*2)+20)*3+(3.5*4))
3x (0.75*(((2.5*2)+23)+(3.5*2)+(3.5*4)+(0.2*(2.5*2)+23)*3+(3.5*4))
So:
2x (0.70*46)+(0.2*(25)*3+(14))= 32.2+19 = 61.2 dpr x 2 unstudied flat-footed mobs
3x (0.75*49)+(0.2*(28)*3(+14))= 36.75+30.8= 67.55 dpr x 3 studied flat-footed mobs
Round1
32.6dpr x 3 unstudied non-flat-footed mobs = 97.8
41.3dpr x 2 studied non-flat-footed mobs = 82.6
=180.4DPR
Round2
61.2 dpr x 2 unstudied flat-footed mobs = 122.4
67.55dpr x 3 studied flat-footed mobs = 188.65
=311.05 DPR
.
Vs. lvl 12 Single Target
Study Target as Swift Action, then Full Round Attack (3 attacks). I’m assuming all attacks after the first, the mob is considered flat-footed.
Round1
First attack: (0.70*(((2.5*2)+23)+(0.2*(2.5*2)+23)*3)+
Second attack: (0.65*(((2.5*2)+23)+(3.5*4)+(0.2*(2.5*2)+23)*3+(3.5*4))+
Third attack: (0.40*(((2.5*2)+23)+(3.5*4)+(0.2*(2.5*2)+23)*3+(3.5*4))
So:
First attack: (0.70*28)+(0.2*(28*3)) = 19.6+16.8 = 36.4
Second attack: (0.65*42)+(0.2*(28*3)+14) = 27.3+30.8 = 58.1
Third attack: (0.40*(42)+(0.2*(28*3)+14) = 16.8+30.8 = 47.6
= 142.1 DPR
Round2
First attack: (0.75*(((2.5*2)+23)+ 3.5*4)+(0.2*(2.5*2)+23)*3+(3.5*4))+
Second attack: (0.65*(((2.5*2)+23)+ (3.5*4)+(0.2*(2.5*2)+23)*3+(3.5*4))+
Third attack: (0.40*(((2.5*2)+23)+(3.5*4)+(0.2*(2.5*2)+23)*3+(3.5*4))
So:
First attack: (0.75*42)+(0.2*(28*3)+14) = 31.5+30.8 = 62.3
Second attack: (0.65*42)+(0.2*(28*3)+14) = 27.3+30.8 = 58.1
Third attack: (0.40*(42)+(0.2*(28*3)+14) = 16.8+30.8 = 47.6
= 168 DPR
.
In summary:
Round1 – Cleaving vs. 5 lvl 12 mobs
32.6dpr x 3 unstudied non-flat-footed mobs = 97.8
41.3dpr x 2 studied non-flat-footed mobs = 82.6
=180.4DPR
Round2 - Cleaving vs. 5 lvl 12 mobs
61.2 dpr x 2 unstudied flat-footed mobs = 122.4
67.55dpr x 3 studied flat-footed mobs = 188.65
=311.05 DPR
Round1 – Full attack vs 1 mob (flat-footed for 2 iterative attacks)
142.1 DPR
Round2 – Full attack vs 1 (flat-footed for all attacks)
168 DPR
.
I might need Avr to check my math and keep me honest, but under ideal circumstances where 5 mobs are all within range of my 10ft Cleave, that's a lot of dmg per round. I'm also assuming that each of the 5 mobs were successfully Intimidated in the first round (to cause the Flat-footed condition from Shatter Defenses). Once all 5 mobs are intimidated (in reality, this might take several rounds), it would be a sustained DPR of 311.05 for all subsequent rounds.
The average lvl 12 mob has 160 HP, so any crits are x3 and might just kill a mob outright , thus proc'ing even more attacks per round from Improved Cleaving Finish.
Despite being Cleave-focused, vs. a lvl 12 single target he can hit 142.1 DPR in round1 and a sustained 168 DPR in round2 and all other subsequent rounds once the mob is flat-footed.
And to reiterate, this is done with no buffs from party or from self-buffing with UMD. The only outside factors are the enchantments to the weapon itself: +3 weapon, +2 culling, +1 agile, and +1 cruel. It’s a 90,000gp weapon though. Technically the +1 Cruel enchant doesn’t need to be on it for the DPR calculation."
From the same thread. This is what I rolled out with actual dice and recorded:
"I rolled this out just for funsies. This is what the dmg looks like.
Pre-combat: Dazzling Display
Intimidate = 10 + Target's HD + Wis Mod, so I'm going to assume a 4 wis mod and say my DC is 26 to Demoralize, so I would need a 5 or higher (or a 2 or higher vs my Studied Targets)
d20 rolls to Intimidate
13
12
18
8
9
All enemies are Shaken.
Round1
d20 rolls to hit
Mob1 13 Studied - Swift
Mob2 16 Studied - Move
Mob3 10
Mob4 9
Mob5 7
All hits
Mob1 1 + 1 + 23 + 2 + 3 = 30
Mob2 2 + 2 + 23 + 4 + 6 = 37
Mob3 3 + 1 + 20 + 1 + 1 = 26
Mob4 4 + 1 + 20 + 4 + 1 = 30
Mob5 1 + 2 + 20 + 1 + 6 = 30
Round1 Total Damage: 153 dmg
d20 rolls to Intimidate
Mob1 11
Mob2 7
Mob3 13
Mob4 11
Mob5 9
All Enemies are now Shakened, Sickened, and Flat Footed.
Round2
d20 rolls to hit
Mob1 14 Studied
Mob2 7 Studied
Mob3 8 Studied - Swift
Mob4 11
Mob5 11
All hits
Mob1 3 + 1 + 23 + 2 + 1 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 1 = 46
Mob2 4 + 4 + 23 + 4 + 5 + 1 + 5 + 5 + 4 = 55
Mob3 3 + 2 + 23 + 4 + 5 + 1 + 4 + 3 + 2 = 47
Mob4 3 + 1 + 20 + 4 + 1 + 4 + 4 + 5 + 1 = 43
Mob5 4 + 3 + 20 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 6 + 5 + 2 = 55
Round2 Total Damage: 246 dmg
Round3
d20 rolls to hit
Mob1 20, 20 to confirm
Mob2 14
Mob3 6
Mob4 4
Mob5 12
All hits, 1 Crit
Dmg rolls
Mob1 (4 + 1 + 23)*3=84 + 2 + 4 + 2 + 2 + 3 + 3 = 100 (mob1 dies: 176 dmg)
Mob2 1 + 1 + 23 + 5 + 4 + 6 + 3 + 6 + 3 = 52
Mob3 1 + 1 + 23 + 5 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 6 + 2 = 42
Mob4 4 + 1 + 20 + 3 + 2 + 3 + 5 + 6 + 6 = 50
Mob5 4 + 1 + 20 + 4 + 6 + 1 + 2 + 6 + 4 = 48
Cleaving Finish: 15 to hit
Mob2 1 + 4 + 23 + 4 + 4 + 1 + 1 + 4 + 3 = 45 (mob2 dies: 189 dmg)
Round3 Total Damage: 337 dmg
Round4
d20 rolls to hit
Mob3 14 Studied
Mob4 15 Studied - Swift
Mob5 19, 13 to confirm Studied - Move
All hits, 1 Crit
Dmg rolls
Mob3 1 + 4 + 23 + 5 + 4 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 2 = 42
Mob4 3 + 1 + 23 + 3 + 2 + 4 + 1 + 4 + 4 = 45 (mob4 dies: 168 dmg)
Mob5 (4 + 1 + 23)*3=84 + 4 + 5 + 2 + 3 + 6 + 5 = 109 (mob5 dies: 242 dmg)
Cleaving Finish x2: 7 to hit, and 6 to hit
Mob3 3 + 2 + 23 + 6 + 4 + 6 + 1 + 4 + 2 = 51
Mob3 4 + 1 + 23 + 4 + 2 + 1 + 5 + 1 + 2 = 43 (mob3 dies: 241 dmg)
Round4 Total Damage: 290dmg
Total damage dealt in 4 rounds: 1016 (254 average)
Total damage dealt in 3 rounds after Flat-footed: 863 (287.6666667 average)"
Getting five CR 12 creatures within 10' of you and keeping them there for a couple of rounds, while not getting badly debuffed or knocked out yourself sounds like the hardest part. Your weakest point (your will save) isn't going to be better than +10 or so and could be a lot less. You're almost certainly flanked and cleave drops your AC by another 2. A lot of CR 12s are larger than medium size too which makes the packing problem harder. Not that it's impossible but worth noting.
Going thru the CR 12s assuming non-evil only, size large or smaller, Paizo-only & not 3.5 - the Akhana Aeons would grapple you (no 2H weapons allowed then) & at least one is going to drain you of levels, Baregaras would grab you too and their quickened hold person SLAs are going to nail you eventually if they somehow don't, Black Jinni - OK, you might win this one, Calikangs are immune to mind-affecting and would pulp you. Basically be careful about the situations you wish for, you might get them.
The math checks out as far as I can tell.
Well, I was about to try to help you... but when looking at the conditions you need to perform that DPR, I just felt it was pointless: you'll NEVER meet such conditions in a game.
You need them to be vulnerable to munade weapons, vulnerable to intimidation and fail their saving throw, be vulnerable to sneak attacks, bypass their AC, have no DR, have no way to keep you at distance and cluter in your 10ft when they perfectly see that your a melee which only ask for that...
I can't figure the last time I saw something like that happen in a campaign, really, and I'm playing since more than 20 years.
Yes, obviously. This would never happen in a real game. This is nothing more than 5 mooks sitting at perfect range accepting epic damage. This is nothing more than a DPR calc, not a real combat situation. Please imagine this completely hypothetical calculation as 5 dummy scarecrows just standing there while I swing my weapon around.
While I have played this character, I've only ever successfully attacked a maximum of 6 mobs with Greater Cleave once (and only once, not for multiple rounds), and it was a bunch of undead mobs that I had successfully stealthed up upon. Mostly, I only get 2-3 mobs to Cleave, tops, sometimes 4 if I get creative with positioning. The cool part about a Cleave build is that I can use a move action and Cleave as a standard. My Initiative is only +5, so I usually go middle to late, after everything else has moved and attacked.
I have a +27-30 Stealth, +40 from my wand of invisibility (or only +20 while I'm moving). I can move as much as I want, or wait as long as I want, before attacking :)
The intimidate/shatter defences is nice but the character doesn't actually need them to do good damage. It's got a solid offense and mobility. This is a respectable glass cannon, at least assuming that it has enough magic items to overcome limited visibility - it's not an unchained rogue and loses that sneak attack with most miss chances.
In the game I'm running, where the characters have been level 12 for a while, it would have worse defenses than anyone except the arcane trickster - she relies on greater invisibility, similar spells and a masters in paranoia to stay alive.
My party is a 2h Paladin, Investigator/Alchemist, Sorc1/Wizard11 (evocation specialist) and Life Oracle. I don't wade into combat with neon flashers and a sign that says "Eat at Joe's", that's not my style. I typically stealth into combat and strike when it's opportune, and run away frequently, only to restealth and jump someone's grits a round or two later. And when I show up, I'm a dervish of death and debuff distribution. I don't need Shatter Defenses unless they're all facing me. I flank like noone's business. I'm basically playing a rogue but with a better BAB and AoE capability.
I rely on Stealth for a great deal of my survivability. And I plan on getting Hellcat Stealth soon too, so I can stealth while being actively viewed.
But yeah, I do a lot of dmg, but I also debuff a lot too :D
Getting five CR 12 creatures within 10' of you and keeping them there for a couple of rounds, while not getting badly debuffed or knocked out yourself sounds like the hardest part. Your weakest point (your will save) isn't going to be better than +10 or so and could be a lot less. You're almost certainly flanked and cleave drops your AC by another 2. A lot of CR 12s are larger than medium size too which makes the packing problem harder. Not that it's impossible but worth noting.
Going thru the CR 12s assuming non-evil only, size large or smaller, Paizo-only & not 3.5 - the Akhana Aeons would grapple you (no 2H weapons allowed then) & at least one is going to drain you of levels, Baregaras would grab you too and their quickened hold person SLAs are going to nail you eventually if they somehow don't, Black Jinni - OK, you might win this one, Calikangs are immune to mind-affecting and would pulp you. Basically be careful about the situations you wish for, you might get them.
The math checks out as far as I can tell.
Thank you for checking out the math. It didn't pass my sniff test, I thought something was wrong with it. It seemed that after I had rolled 4 rounds worth of damage that it wasn't even close.
Well, as long you're aware of it... that's fine :)
Really, however, therorical DPR means nothing in pathfinder.
The possible situations are just a lot more varied and complex than in video games.
Even if I roll a 1 on a stealth check, that's still a 48-51 DC to an opposed Perception to perceive me while I'm moving, or a 68-71 DC to perceive me while I'm standing still. Even if a mob has See Invisibility (and that's happened), it's still a 28-31 DC to perceive me, if I roll a 1 on a stealth check.
I'm patient... I can wait.
Once I get 3-4 mobs within range, and I'm quite certain nothing is a serious threat, I make a move action and Cleave. If there are any mobs that follow after me after my Cleave attack during the following round, I can take a 5ft step in a strategic direction, and Cleave again. And rinse, lather, repeat. They're all shaken, sickened, and flat-footed, with a -4 to attack and saves. My Wizard, Investigator and Oracle take big, hairy, foul-smelling, unearthly dumps all over them once their saves are reduced.
And if I take a bunch of damage from entering combat prematurely or if things go awry, I can run away, restealth and use my wand of cure serious wounds.
One of my friends posted this on your other thread showing your DPR is lower than you have here.
Your dpr calculations are over estimates, I think. When you use cleave and miss you don't get any more attacks. Your math treats them the you get the subsequent attacks.
Mini example.
.75 chance to hit for 20 damage.
.75 chance to hit for 20 damage.If these were normal attacks 15 from each attack total of 30.
Cleave 25% of the time you do 0 damage. Miss attack 1 and no attack 2
Hit with attack on and 2 for 30 damage 56% of the time.
Hit with attack one, miss with attack 2. 19% of the time.
Then you have to put the together.
((56*30)+(19*15)+(25*0))/100=19.65
So this cuts the damage down drastically. You have to do this for every possible outcome and add them together.
For a bench a sword and kukri slayer with wbl does ~ 200 damage when using oppertunist and bashing finish against any number of enemies. I have seen this pushed much higher with secondary natural attacks and multiclassing.
So since if you miss the chain is done you have to have 0 damage for attacks that you miss the first swing.
