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I've been pretty critical of the whole Saddle thing, so I wanted to shout out that the I believe all the outstanding Saddle questions have been answered in the new FAQ!
Highlights:
- Class Feature Mounts may always wear a saddle even if the body type normally wouldn't grant one. Other Class Feature Entities (CFE) that are not a mount class feature are not automatically granted a saddle slot.
- Creature body types no longer disallow wearing a belt or chest item just because they have the saddle slot. In other words, saddle is a separate slot for that animal type now and they still retain the belt or chest slot respectively.
- Creatures with the saddle or horseshoe slots can always wear magic items of those types. (Nice return of that language to the FAQ).
- CRB riding animals (dog, pony, mule, and horse) all use standard saddles. ALL other creatures use exotic saddles.
Nice permissive clarifications!
EDIT: Only Mounts get saddles despite body type.
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Only question I have outstanding would be, if they have a saddle slot, does that take up the belt slot? In other words, would the creature be able to wear both a saddle and a belt? This became unclear when separating the saddle from the belt slot.
It looks like they have added a new slot called Saddle. There are two types have both Belt and Saddle listed. So if Belt is not listed, it is not "free" slot and would need to be picked up using Extra Item Slot feat.
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Only question I have outstanding would be, if they have a saddle slot, does that take up the belt slot? In other words, would the creature be able to wear both a saddle and a belt? This became unclear when separating the saddle from the belt slot.It looks like they have added a new slot called Saddle. There are two types have both Belt and Saddle listed. So if Belt is not listed, it is not "free" slot and would need to be picked up using Extra Item Slot feat.
Yes, but that isn't the question I asked.
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On the Avian:
The Ultimate Wilderness rules, which were identical to the previous FAQ, the saddle slot replaced the chest slot. So Birds got Chest [saddle]. In UW, avians also got a Belt slot. So was this change to omit the chest slot but create a separate saddle slot an error or on purpose? If it was on purpose, is this saddle slot taking the place of the belt slot assuming that other creatures that have Belt [saddle] but now Belt and Saddle, can't wear both a belt and saddle (assuming they have all the requisite extra item slot feats)?
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Yes, but that isn't the question I asked.Only question I have outstanding would be, if they have a saddle slot, does that take up the belt slot? In other words, would the creature be able to wear both a saddle and a belt? This became unclear when separating the saddle from the belt slot.It looks like they have added a new slot called Saddle. There are two types have both Belt and Saddle listed. So if Belt is not listed, it is not "free" slot and would need to be picked up using Extra Item Slot feat.
I did answer the question you asked. At least I believe I did.
They list all the slots that a creature type has. If Belt is not listed, it is not there. Saddle appears to no longer take over the Chest or Belts slots because numerous creature types list Belt or Chest AND Saddle as slots.
At least that is how I am reading it. So I guess I don't understand your question.
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Yes, but that isn't the question I asked.Only question I have outstanding would be, if they have a saddle slot, does that take up the belt slot? In other words, would the creature be able to wear both a saddle and a belt? This became unclear when separating the saddle from the belt slot.It looks like they have added a new slot called Saddle. There are two types have both Belt and Saddle listed. So if Belt is not listed, it is not "free" slot and would need to be picked up using Extra Item Slot feat.I did answer the question you asked. At least I believe I did.
They list all the slots that a creature type has. If Belt is not listed, it is not there. Saddle appears to no longer take over the Chest or Belts slots because numerous creature types list Belt or Chest AND Saddle as slots.
At least that is how I am reading it. So I guess I don't understand your question.
The original FAQ mirrored exactly what was in Ultimate Wilderness.
A creature that had a Belt Slot, but could wear saddles, had belt [saddle] as their slot. And the accompanying text indicated that such a creature could not wear a belt item that was not a saddle at all.
The new FAQ has now separated belt [saddle] into belt and saddle slots. Normally a saddle magic item indicates that it takes the belt slot. And how I'd interpret the new FAQ, I would not change that. However, the new FAQ is a bit ambiguous on what exactly separating belt [saddle] into its requisite components means exactly. Are they now two separate slots? If I have the extra item slot feat to add belt to my horse, can my horse wear both a magical saddle and a belt of incredible dexterity?
I don't think that should work, but it needs to be clarified which slot the new saddle slot replaces should a creature want to wear a magical saddle, assuming that is indeed the intent.
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Andrew, I read it that they created a new slot called Saddle.
Why else would they call out that a creature type has a Chest or Belt AND Saddle slots? I see no where in the new FAQ the terms belt[saddle]. It is gone.
I think the FAQ makes it easier and you are trying to hold onto the old.
But I could be wrong.
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Andrew, I read it that they created a new slot called Saddle.
Why else would they call out that a creature type has a Chest or Belt AND Saddle slots? I see no where in the new FAQ the terms belt[saddle]. It is gone.I think the FAQ makes it easier and you are trying to hold onto the old.
But I could be wrong.
But there is no such thing as a "saddle" slot in the game. So are they changing the slot required for magical saddles from belt to saddle? That needs explanation or further text (even just a single sentence) indicating as such. Are animals companions the only creatures in the game, in PFS, that can wear both a saddle and a belt?
I think the FAQ clarifications that make this "simpler" have actually created more questions than it solved, because of the unintended implications involved with creating a new magic item slot that didn't exist before.
I could be wrong. If I am, that's great. But the FAQ needs to explain it as such, or this is going to just become another gaping issue for confusion.
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True, a saddle slot does not exist in the written rules. But our GM has made a house rule that it exists in the campaign that we play in.
Yes, I would say the GM has moved magical saddles from Belt slot to Saddle slot. Same is true for non-magical saddles. True, it is not explicitly detailed but it is very much implied.
Yes, animal companions are the only creatures that our GM allows to wear a saddle and a belt, if it has the item slot (Familiars have their own FAQ).
I agree that if it is not clear for you, then maybe some additional clarifications are needed.
But for me, the FAQ is clear.
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True. If we tried to eliminate all table variation we would have volumes of rules.
And again, this wouldn't require volumes of rules Gary. I have no idea why you are being so stubborn about this.
A simple sentence that says, "The saddle slot is a new magic item slot for these creatures only and may be used simultaneously as any other magic item slots available to the companion." or "Saddles still take the slot noted in the magic item, typically the belt slot, so your mount cannot wear both a magical saddle and a magical belt, but may wear a mundane saddle with a magical belt."
This doesn't add volumes. This adds clarity with a single sentence.
This particular FAQ has been an issue from the very beginning and each iteration of its fix from when I started playing the game until the one about 6 months ago, to this one, its been touted as the definitive fix. These issues that I'm bringing up now, were issues that I brought up several times 6 months ago as well. So its not like someone couldn't have compiled that information to write the new FAQ.
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Because I don't think any additional clarification is need.
Maybe I am just jaded right now. In my job I have to listen the state legislature debate proposed bills and that always makes me grumpy.
Right now, I only have one character with an AC and I never tried to ride it. It is a fighting boar that also carries my gear. Was a little miffed that I couldn't put a belt on it, and still can't because I don't want to use a feat for it.
And with PS2.0 coming, it is unlikely that I will create a new character that has an AC.
Edit:
I think your suggestions are good and encourage them to be included as soon as possible.
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Because I don't think any additional clarification is need.
You know how many times as a VL and VC I fought that same fight because I understood the rule? I was often right about my interpretation. Probably in the 90%+ area somewhere. But the fact I could have been up to 10% wrong about my interpretations lead me to soften my stance on things like this.
If an ambiguity was brought up that even just one person could interpret incorrectly on the message boards (unless the interpretation was just wack word manipulation to make something mean what they wanted it to mean) means probably hundreds or thousands could misinterpret the language out in the real world.
In this case, a new rule element has been potentially added without any language to how it should be integrated into the ruleset. That isn't just us interpreting it differently. That's a lack of fully explaining a new rule.
Developer
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Let's see if I can clear up the confusion. Please let me know if this response doesn't cover it.
Saddle is a new magic item slot that we've created for Pathfinder Society, adding to the existing list of slots. In Pathfinder Society, all saddles now occupy this new saddle slot. Creatures must have a saddle slot to wear saddles, and saddles can only be worn in the saddle slot. This applies whether they are non-magical saddles or magical saddles, and whether the saddles are listed in their respective sources as occupying the belt (saddle) slot, the chest (saddle) slot, or no slot at all. You could think of it as a campaign clarification on every book that contains a saddle to change the listed slot of each saddle item to "saddle."
So to go back to your question: if a creature has both a belt slot and a saddle slot, it can wear both a belt and a saddle at the same time. So let's say you have a piscine companion, and you buy two items for it: a war saddle from Knights of the Inner Sea and a belt of giant's strength +2 . In Knights of the Inner Sea, it says that the war saddle occupies the belt slot, but in Pathfinder Society, it occupies the saddle slot and could not be worn in the belt slot. If the companion took the Extra item slot feat to allow it to wear magic items in the belt slot, it could wear the belt of giant's strength +2 in its belt slot.
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For organized play purposes, creatures listed in the equipment section of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook (dogs, mules, donkeys, ponies, and horses) can wear standard saddles. All other creatures use exotic saddles. Magical saddles have the same price whether they are standard saddles or exotic saddles.
That really makes it sound like other critters can wear saddles. Since the intent is that only creatures with a saddle slot can wear mundane saddles you probably want to spell that out in the FAQ somewhere.
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For organized play purposes, creatures listed in the equipment section of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook (dogs, mules, donkeys, ponies, and horses) can wear standard saddles. All other creatures use exotic saddles. Magical saddles have the same price whether they are standard saddles or exotic saddles.
That really makes it sound like other critters can wear saddles. Since the intent is that only creatures with a saddle slot can wear mundane saddles you probably want to spell that out in the FAQ somewhere.
All other creatures CAN if they are gained as a companion. Thus them saying that they'd require an exotic is a good thing. The rules for needing access to the ability to wear saddles already handles creatures that don't have saddle slot.
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All other creatures CAN if they are gained as a companion. Thus them saying that they'd require an exotic is a good thing. The rules for needing access to the ability to wear saddles already handles creatures that don't have saddle slot.
For organized play purposes, creatures listed in the equipment section of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook (dogs, mules, donkeys, ponies, and horses) can wear standard saddles. All other creatures use exotic saddles. Magical saddles have the same price whether they are standard saddles or exotic saddles.
That really makes it sound like other critters can wear saddles. Since the intent is that only creatures with a saddle slot can wear mundane saddles you probably want to spell that out in the FAQ somewhere.
It looks like only "mount" companion creatures can always wear saddles, not other types of companion creature. This makes me sad.
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It looks like only "mount" companion creatures can always wear saddles, not other types of companion creature. This makes me sad.All other creatures CAN if they are gained as a companion. Thus them saying that they'd require an exotic is a good thing. The rules for needing access to the ability to wear saddles already handles creatures that don't have saddle slot.
For organized play purposes, creatures listed in the equipment section of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook (dogs, mules, donkeys, ponies, and horses) can wear standard saddles. All other creatures use exotic saddles. Magical saddles have the same price whether they are standard saddles or exotic saddles.
That really makes it sound like other critters can wear saddles. Since the intent is that only creatures with a saddle slot can wear mundane saddles you probably want to spell that out in the FAQ somewhere.
awe that is kinda lame. I had forgotten that there is some distinction between mount ACs and normal ACs.
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It looks like only "mount" companion creatures can always wear saddles, not other types of companion creature. This makes me sad.All other creatures CAN if they are gained as a companion. Thus them saying that they'd require an exotic is a good thing. The rules for needing access to the ability to wear saddles already handles creatures that don't have saddle slot.
For organized play purposes, creatures listed in the equipment section of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook (dogs, mules, donkeys, ponies, and horses) can wear standard saddles. All other creatures use exotic saddles. Magical saddles have the same price whether they are standard saddles or exotic saddles.
That really makes it sound like other critters can wear saddles. Since the intent is that only creatures with a saddle slot can wear mundane saddles you probably want to spell that out in the FAQ somewhere.
Wait, I don’t think it says that at all. A creature doesn’t have the come from the “Mount” class feature to wear a saddle or a magical saddle.
“Creatures with the Saddle and Horseshoe slots can always wear magical versions of these items.”
The only time the “Mount” class feature is mentioned is to say that if an animal is granted by that feature, it can wear a saddle, even if it’s creature type doesn’t normally allow it to wear a saddle.
So if a creature has a saddle slot, it can wear a saddle (might need to be exotic, if it isn’t a typical mount), and it can wear magic saddles.
If a creature is granted as a Mount by a class feature, then it can wear a saddle.
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General Rule: Consult the list of creature types to see if your creature has a Saddle slot.
Specific Rule: If your creature has a Saddle slot, determine whether it is a regular Saddle or an exotic Saddle.
Super Specific Rule: If your creature is a class-granted Mount (such as a First Mother's Fang Constrictor Snake, for example), it gains a Saddle slot, regardless of whether that creature would otherwise be restricted from having such a slot.
Sounds good to me.
Can humans wear Saddles?
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It looks like only "mount" companion creatures can always wear saddles, not other types of companion creature. This makes me sad.Wait, I don’t think it says that at all. A creature doesn’t have the come from the “Mount” class feature to wear a saddle or a magical saddle.
“Creatures with the Saddle and Horseshoe slots can always wear magical versions of these items.”
The only time the “Mount” class feature is mentioned is to say that if an animal is granted by that feature, it can wear a saddle, even if it’s creature type doesn’t normally allow it to wear a saddle.
So if a creature has a saddle slot, it can wear a saddle (might need to be exotic, if it isn’t a typical mount), and it can wear magic saddles.
If a creature is granted as a Mount by a class feature, then it can wear a saddle.
A companion that is a Mount (class feature) can always wear a saddle, regardless of its normal slots.
A companion that has the Saddle slot can always wear a saddle, normal or exotic depending on the creature.
A companion that does not have the Saddle slot and is not a Mount (class feature) can not wear a saddle, not even an exotic one.
I am disappointed by this.
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Ok, so just confusion around the terminology. What matters is the saddle slot, not whether it’s a “mount” or not. The only time being a “Mount” comes into play is to allow more access, not restrict it.
I realize the rules before were vague about when an exotic saddle could be used. Some of the creatures were kind of a stretch to wear a saddle to begin with. I think what we’ve got here is pretty permissive, without penalizing archetypes built around a specific unusual mount. More importantly, the rules are clear now, which is a huge improvement.
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Let's see if I can clear up the confusion. Please let me know if this response doesn't cover it.
Saddle is a new magic item slot that we've created for Pathfinder Society, adding to the existing list of slots. In Pathfinder Society, all saddles now occupy this new saddle slot. Creatures must have a saddle slot to wear saddles, and saddles can only be worn in the saddle slot. This applies whether they are non-magical saddles or magical saddles, and whether the saddles are listed in their respective sources as occupying the belt (saddle) slot, the chest (saddle) slot, or no slot at all. You could think of it as a campaign clarification on every book that contains a saddle to change the listed slot of each saddle item to "saddle."So to go back to your question: if a creature has both a belt slot and a saddle slot, it can wear both a belt and a saddle at the same time. So let's say you have a piscine companion, and you buy two items for it: a war saddle from Knights of the Inner Sea and a belt of giant's strength +2 . In Knights of the Inner Sea, it says that the war saddle occupies the belt slot, but in Pathfinder Society, it occupies the saddle slot and could not be worn in the belt slot. If the companion took the Extra item slot feat to allow it to wear magic items in the belt slot, it could wear the belt of giant's strength +2 in its belt slot.
Linda,
one question on "Regardless of body shape, class-granted mounts can always wear saddles."Does this only pertain to the mounts granted by the cavalier or paladin classes, or does this cover any animal companion. I ask, specifically, as I have a druid with a giant scorpion who may or may not be currently legal.
Thanks!
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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As the originator of the thread, 'Cause Horses need shoes and saddles, I thank Linda (and Lau, and any other VOs who were on that team) for all their hard work on this new FAQ.
Hmm
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So, all avian companions lose the ability to wear a saddle?
Ah well, -5 on ride checks for my Roc riding halfling it is then.
Also, what about dire bats, which have in their entry specifically stated that they can be fitted with exotic saddles, but don't have the saddle slot because they have the avian body type which only has a belt slot?
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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Damanta, here's a link to the revised FAQ:
If you check out avians, they get the saddle slot!
Avian* (armor, belt, eyes, head, headband, neck, ring, saddle, wrist): Archaeopteryx, axe beak, blackwisp egret, bustard, dimorphodon, dire bat, drake, eagle, enchanter heron, giant owl, giant raven, giant vulture, hawk, impaler shrike, moa, ornithomimosaur, owl, pteranodon, quetzalcoatlus, roc, trumpeter swan, whisperfall vulture, yolubilis heron
Amusingly, dire bats are avian too. Who knew?
Hmm
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Let's see if I can clear up the confusion. Please let me know if this response doesn't cover it.
Saddle is a new magic item slot that we've created for Pathfinder Society, adding to the existing list of slots. In Pathfinder Society, all saddles now occupy this new saddle slot. Creatures must have a saddle slot to wear saddles, and saddles can only be worn in the saddle slot. This applies whether they are non-magical saddles or magical saddles, and whether the saddles are listed in their respective sources as occupying the belt (saddle) slot, the chest (saddle) slot, or no slot at all. You could think of it as a campaign clarification on every book that contains a saddle to change the listed slot of each saddle item to "saddle."So to go back to your question: if a creature has both a belt slot and a saddle slot, it can wear both a belt and a saddle at the same time. So let's say you have a piscine companion, and you buy two items for it: a war saddle from Knights of the Inner Sea and a belt of giant's strength +2 . In Knights of the Inner Sea, it says that the war saddle occupies the belt slot, but in Pathfinder Society, it occupies the saddle slot and could not be worn in the belt slot. If the companion took the Extra item slot feat to allow it to wear magic items in the belt slot, it could wear the belt of giant's strength +2 in its belt slot.
Linda,
one question on "Regardless of body shape, class-granted mounts can always wear saddles."Does this only pertain to the mounts granted by the cavalier or paladin classes, or does this cover any animal companion. I ask, specifically, as I have a druid with a giant scorpion who may or may not be currently legal.
Thanks!
Its mount class features. Not animal companions used as mounts.