‘Cause Horses need shoes and saddles!


Pathfinder Society

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Minnesota

14 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 5 people marked this as a favorite.

Hello PFS Leadership Team!

I would like to query about an unfortunate side effect of the Organized Play FAQ on Companions and Magic Items, especially as concerns our horse and pony friends!

Before this FAQ came into being, it was always assumed that equines could use those magic items especially designed for them, namely horse shoes and saddles. Now that this FAQ has come into being, they need to use the extra item feat to take the magic items designed for them. Even worse, because the feat does not say that it can be taken multiple times, a horse can never have a magical saddle and magical horse shoes. They and their Pathfinder friends must choose which they can have!

Is there any way we can clarify this FAQ? Horses need shoes and saddles! Please, let them use the items designed just for them without expending a feat!

If there are those who wish to be neigh-sayers to this request, feel free to express your arguments here! But I am hoping that most will come out in support of our equine friends!

Hmm

1/5

I think part of the issue is that a belt of strength falls into the belt slot right? So they can't just open up that slot cause that wouldn't be "fair".
So it would seem like they'd need an exception text. Like, "things that specifically call out an animal can be used by that animal without needing the extra slot feat."
Or does the FAQ say that horses can't wear belt of strength and can only wear saddles? In which case it comes down to why would horses get it but not other saddle animals?

4/5

As long as we are asking about saddles, I also noticed that as far as I can tell nothing says the weight of a saddle depends on the size of the critter wearing it, as saddles do not have the size dependent mark on encumbrance.

Scarab Sages 5/5

Thomas Hutchins wrote:

I think part of the issue is that a belt of strength falls into the belt slot right? So they can't just open up that slot cause that wouldn't be "fair".

So it would seem like they'd need an exception text. Like, "things that specifically call out an animal can be used by that animal without needing the extra slot feat."
Or does the FAQ say that horses can't wear belt of strength and can only wear saddles? In which case it comes down to why would horses get it but not other saddle animals?

Animals that have a "Belt [Saddle]" Slot cannot wear a normal belt. They can only wear saddles. That is what the FAQ basically says and Linda clarified in the thread.

1/5

Tallow wrote:
Thomas Hutchins wrote:

I think part of the issue is that a belt of strength falls into the belt slot right? So they can't just open up that slot cause that wouldn't be "fair".

So it would seem like they'd need an exception text. Like, "things that specifically call out an animal can be used by that animal without needing the extra slot feat."
Or does the FAQ say that horses can't wear belt of strength and can only wear saddles? In which case it comes down to why would horses get it but not other saddle animals?
Animals that have a "Belt [Saddle]" Slot cannot wear a normal belt. They can only wear saddles. That is what the FAQ basically says and Linda clarified in the thread.

So it comes down to why would horses get the slot free when other animals with saddle slots wouldn't?

Scarab Sages 4/5

The clarification used to be that if a magic item was made for a specific type of animal, then that animal can use the magic item. So horses could use horseshoes without Extra Item Slot. That language or something similar didn't appear in the FAQ.

I'd like to just see saddle added to the list with neck and armor as being always available to animals that have that slot.

Scarab Sages 5/5

Thomas Hutchins wrote:
Tallow wrote:
Thomas Hutchins wrote:

I think part of the issue is that a belt of strength falls into the belt slot right? So they can't just open up that slot cause that wouldn't be "fair".

So it would seem like they'd need an exception text. Like, "things that specifically call out an animal can be used by that animal without needing the extra slot feat."
Or does the FAQ say that horses can't wear belt of strength and can only wear saddles? In which case it comes down to why would horses get it but not other saddle animals?
Animals that have a "Belt [Saddle]" Slot cannot wear a normal belt. They can only wear saddles. That is what the FAQ basically says and Linda clarified in the thread.
So it comes down to why would horses get the slot free when other animals with saddle slots wouldn't?

Pretty much, but I suspect that should this change be implemented, then any animal with the belt [saddle] would get saddle without spending the feat. And since this doesn't automatically open up the belt slot to non-saddle belts, then there really isn't much of a reason to say no on this.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

There are also weird cases like the First Mother's Fang Cavalier, which treats Constrictor Snakes as suitable mounts.

Do just those Snakes gain the saddle slot? Or would they need to expend a feat?

Scarab Sages 5/5

Nefreet wrote:

There are also weird cases like the First Mother's Fang Cavalier, which treats Constrictor Snakes as suitable mounts.

Do just those Snakes gain the saddle slot? Or would they need to expend a feat?

Well, technically because Snakes don't have a saddle slot, I don't think the feat would give them one.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

That, too.

5/5 5/55/55/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

there's also no clarification on if exotic saddles really work anymore in PFS

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Minnesota

That would be sad if they do not!

Hmm

1/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
there's also no clarification on if exotic saddles really work anymore in PFS

yeah. Saddles can only be worn by creatures with the saddle slot and creatures with the saddle slot can wear saddles.

Thus there's nothing for exotic saddles to do. Either some animals with the saddle slot need exotic saddles and we don't know it, or exotic saddles can be put on other animals that don't have the saddle slot to let them have a saddle. Or it does nothing in PFS and just looks cooler.

Scarab Sages 5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Thomas Hutchins wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
there's also no clarification on if exotic saddles really work anymore in PFS

yeah. Saddles can only be worn by creatures with the saddle slot and creatures with the saddle slot can wear saddles.

Thus there's nothing for exotic saddles to do. Either some animals with the saddle slot need exotic saddles and we don't know it, or exotic saddles can be put on other animals that don't have the saddle slot to let them have a saddle. Or it does nothing in PFS and just looks cooler.

There is a 3rd option.

Only animals that historically, typically wear saddles (horses & camels) can wear the standard saddle, and all other animals must wear an exotic saddle. Exotic saddles aren't meant for creatures that don't have a saddle slot. They are meant for creatures that have a saddle slot, but have a specifically more exotic anatomy than a typical horse-like creature. For example Avian animals have Chest [saddle]. I would say that birds need an exotic saddle.

1/5

Tallow wrote:
Thomas Hutchins wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
there's also no clarification on if exotic saddles really work anymore in PFS

yeah. Saddles can only be worn by creatures with the saddle slot and creatures with the saddle slot can wear saddles.

Thus there's nothing for exotic saddles to do. Either some animals with the saddle slot need exotic saddles and we don't know it, or exotic saddles can be put on other animals that don't have the saddle slot to let them have a saddle. Or it does nothing in PFS and just looks cooler.

There is a 3rd option.

Only animals that historically, typically wear saddles (horses & camels) can wear the standard saddle, and all other animals must wear an exotic saddle. Exotic saddles aren't meant for creatures that don't have a saddle slot. They are meant for creatures that have a saddle slot, but have a specifically more exotic anatomy than a typical horse-like creature. For example Avian animals have Chest [saddle]. I would say that birds need an exotic saddle.

That was my first listed option. "Either some animals with the saddle slot need exotic saddles and we don't know it."

As it is now, having the saddle slot means they can wear and use the saddle. So, the exotic saddle does nothing, pretty sure that Tonya confirmed this when it was asked about in the thread, that they hadn't considered that item and would need to figure out what it does.

5/5 *****

I don't believe there has been any such post by Tonya.

The whole issue has been left to simmer for months now since the FAQ came out. It is very frustrating to have a FAQ which was supposed to make things clearer actually make them more confusing.

1/5

andreww wrote:

I don't believe there has been any such post by Tonya.

The whole issue has been left to simmer for months now since the FAQ came out. It is very frustrating to have a FAQ which was supposed to make things clearer actually make them more confusing.

My mistake, Linda was the one responding to that thread. (official pfs person, female name, close enough for my memory to think it was okay and mix them up)

and here is what I'm taking to understand that having the saddle slot lets you wear a normal saddle.

Grand Lodge 5/5

Saddle slot is a magical item slot. Normal, mundane gear worn does not interfere or interact with the Magical Item Slots, Either in mounts or in Characters. Wearing a robe doesn't prevent a monk from wearing a (Chest [Body]) slot item. Exotic saddles can be worn, if they aren't magical.

Scarab Sages 5/5

Quintin Verassi wrote:
Saddle slot is a magical item slot. Normal, mundane gear worn does not interfere or interact with the Magical Item Slots, Either in mounts or in Characters. Wearing a robe doesn't prevent a monk from wearing a (Chest [Body]) slot item. Exotic saddles can be worn, if they aren't magical.

This isn't what everyone is talking about.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Well, but, it sort of is.

There is a Belt (Saddle) slot.

Some creatures have this slot, and some don't (would be GREAT if humanoid bipeds did not).

Similarly, there is an Armor slot.

Some creatures have this slot, and some don't.

In either case, you can't wear that type of item if you don't have that slot.

Whether it's magical or mundane doesn't matter.

Scarab Sages 5/5

Nefreet wrote:

Well, but, it sort of is.

There is a Belt (Saddle) slot.

Some creatures have this slot, and some don't (would be GREAT if humanoid bipeds did not).

Similarly, there is an Armor slot.

Some creatures have this slot, and some don't.

In either case, you can't wear that type of item if you don't have that slot.

Whether it's magical or mundane doesn't matter.

I don't disagree with any of this.

But this isn't really where the question is.

Linda clarified that if you have a saddle slot, you could wear a mundane saddle without the use of extra item slot feat.

The question really is, which creatures are considered exotic enough to need an exotic saddle, and which creatures can use a standard saddle. Or alternatively, is exotic saddle used for creatures that don't have a saddle slot?

My opinion, and preferred answer, is that only creatures with a saddle slot can wear a saddle of any kind, and anything beyond a horse (pony, donkey, or mule), camel, or riding dog require an exotic saddle.

Scarab Sages 5/5

Nefreet wrote:

(would be GREAT if humanoid bipeds did not).

The question also becomes, does all item slots equal a saddle slot? Or does saddle need to be specifically called out even for creature types that say, all item slots.

EDIT: My opinion, and preferred answer, is that saddle has to be specifically called out, and creature types that say, all slots available are not specifically calling out saddle, so do not get to use saddles.

This would negate all the wonky mounted rules and circumstances that crop up that the rules don't discuss in regards to one character riding another character.

Scarab Sages 4/5

Creatures with a saddle slot can't wear magical belts, right? Isn't that in there somewhere? So I certainly hope Humans have the belt slot and not the belt [saddle] slot.

Scarab Sages 5/5

Ferious Thune wrote:
Creatures with a saddle slot can't wear magical belts, right? Isn't that in there somewhere? So I certainly hope Humans have the belt slot and not the belt [saddle] slot.

That is correct, and that is how I would interpret it as well. Just a small clarification that, all item slots does not mean they have both belt and belt [saddle] might be necessary.

4/5 5/55/55/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis

Personally, I would like if horses, ponies and mules all automatically had the saddle and horseshoe slot. It would fit the expectations, give a small boost to taking those animal companions and I do not feel it is overpowered.

If you require Extra Item Slot, that means a fighter buying a trained warhorse can never use either of these items. Considering that both Horseshoes of Speed and Horseshoes of a Zepher are Core Campaign, I think this is significant.

Scarab Sages 5/5

BretI wrote:

Personally, I would like if horses, ponies and mules all automatically had the saddle and horseshoe slot. It would fit the expectations, give a small boost to taking those animal companions and I do not feel it is overpowered.

If you require Extra Item Slot, that means a fighter buying a trained warhorse can never use either of these items. Considering that both Horseshoes of Speed and Horseshoes of a Zepher are Core Campaign, I think this is significant.

I am not at all concerned about what a character can put on a purchased animal.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

So this conversation started with my character, who is horse riding cavalier, who happens to own a pair of Horseshoes of the Zephyr. I brought up being bummed when I read the clarification because I was looking forward to getting a new feat for my horse soon and instead I found that my animal companion was illegal and I needed to instead turn one of my feats into Extra Item Slot if I wanted to keep using my horseshoes.

I would love it if horses and ponies got to use magic horse shoes and saddles again. I always considered these items to be one of the few advantages a horse or pony got over all the animal companion choices out there. Maybe it would make horses too powerful and everyone will want to trade their rocs, wolves, big cats and velociraptors in for equines; but something tells me that those choices would continue being more popular than horses and ponies.

I do think the question about whether purchased or summoned animals can wear magic items is a valid one. If my cavalier's horse died in the middle of a module; I probably would buy a horse or see if I could convince one of the spellcaster's to cast mount for me. It'd be nice to know whether I could pass my mount's equipment onto the temporary replacement.

Silver Crusade 1/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

The previous ruling, that items specifically made for certain creatures/body types did not require a feat to use, ought to still hold.

Horseshoes can't be used by anything without hooves. It is faintly ridiculous to expect horses to also need a feat to use magic horseshoes. It strains credulity. (How many magic item crafters would make such an item, given that no horse but an animal companion horse could wear them?)

And the notion that a creature without a specific magic item slot for saddles can't wear a mundane saddle, especially an exotic saddle that would be manufactured to fit it, is even more problematic. A creature without hands doesn't have the hands slot, but there aren't many creatures you couldn't fit a saddle to if you made the saddle for that exact creature's anatomy.

Scarab Sages 5/5

supervillan wrote:

The previous ruling, that items specifically made for certain creatures/body types did not require a feat to use, ought to still hold.

Horseshoes can't be used by anything without hooves. It is faintly ridiculous to expect horses to also need a feat to use magic horseshoes. It strains credulity. (How many magic item crafters would make such an item, given that no horse but an animal companion horse could wear them?)

And the notion that a creature without a specific magic item slot for saddles can't wear a mundane saddle, especially an exotic saddle that would be manufactured to fit it, is even more problematic. A creature without hands doesn't have the hands slot, but there aren't many creatures you couldn't fit a saddle to if you made the saddle for that exact creature's anatomy.

Why? The previous ruling was an FAQ. The new FAQ removed that ruling. That ruling no longer exists. Therefore is not valid anymore.

Silver Crusade 1/5

Tallow wrote:
supervillan wrote:

The previous ruling, that items specifically made for certain creatures/body types did not require a feat to use, ought to still hold.

Horseshoes can't be used by anything without hooves. It is faintly ridiculous to expect horses to also need a feat to use magic horseshoes. It strains credulity. (How many magic item crafters would make such an item, given that no horse but an animal companion horse could wear them?)

And the notion that a creature without a specific magic item slot for saddles can't wear a mundane saddle, especially an exotic saddle that would be manufactured to fit it, is even more problematic. A creature without hands doesn't have the hands slot, but there aren't many creatures you couldn't fit a saddle to if you made the saddle for that exact creature's anatomy.

Why? The previous ruling was an FAQ. The new FAQ removed that ruling. That ruling no longer exists. Therefore is not valid anymore.

"Ought" as in "would be best."

Scarab Sages 5/5

supervillan wrote:
Tallow wrote:
supervillan wrote:

The previous ruling, that items specifically made for certain creatures/body types did not require a feat to use, ought to still hold.

Horseshoes can't be used by anything without hooves. It is faintly ridiculous to expect horses to also need a feat to use magic horseshoes. It strains credulity. (How many magic item crafters would make such an item, given that no horse but an animal companion horse could wear them?)

And the notion that a creature without a specific magic item slot for saddles can't wear a mundane saddle, especially an exotic saddle that would be manufactured to fit it, is even more problematic. A creature without hands doesn't have the hands slot, but there aren't many creatures you couldn't fit a saddle to if you made the saddle for that exact creature's anatomy.

Why? The previous ruling was an FAQ. The new FAQ removed that ruling. That ruling no longer exists. Therefore is not valid anymore.
"Ought" as in "would be best."

I was interpreting that as, "Ought" as in "should" as in "still does." Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Silver Crusade 1/5

Tallow wrote:
....I was interpreting that as, "Ought" as in "should" as in "still does." Sorry for the misunderstanding.

No worries. I could have been clearer as to what I meant.

Silver Crusade 1/5

The more I think about this, the more I wonder what problem the PFS "extra item slot" ruling is trying to solve.

The feat as published gives a critter a slot it doesn't normally get. In PFS, a critter has to have this feat for a slot that they do normally get, otherwise they can't have it.

PFS characters have tightly controlled wealth. If that wealth is spent on toys for a pet then there's an opportunity cost; the PC will have fewer toys.

What is the problem with critters having all the item slots their body shapes normally allow?

5/5 5/55/55/5

supervillan wrote:


PFS characters have tightly controlled wealth. If that wealth is spent on toys for a pet then there's an opportunity cost; the PC will have fewer toys.

What is the problem with critters having all the item slots their body shapes normally allow?

You can have items for PCs who's effects are not vetted for all the different types of critters, for example an amulet of mighty fists for speed (which raw would turn you into a buzzsaw, but an faq clarifies oh hell no, mostly because it would turn you into a buzzsaw), or furyborn depending on how it works are two biggies.

Silver Crusade 1/5

Aren't those problems best addressed by ruling on the specific items? I mean, in theory every item outside the core rulebook has to be vetted in order to be included in the campaign at all (via additional resources).

5/5 5/55/55/5

supervillan wrote:
Aren't those problems best addressed by ruling on the specific items? I mean, in theory every item outside the core rulebook has to be vetted in order to be included in the campaign at all (via additional resources).

it turns item Sudoku into Sudoku on a tesseract.


BigNorseWolf wrote:


it turns item Sudoku into Sudoku on a tesseract.

In return for requiring players to buy back the ability to use items for their intended purpose... not sure that's a sensible trade.

1/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
supervillan wrote:


PFS characters have tightly controlled wealth. If that wealth is spent on toys for a pet then there's an opportunity cost; the PC will have fewer toys.

What is the problem with critters having all the item slots their body shapes normally allow?

You can have items for PCs who's effects are not vetted for all the different types of critters, for example an amulet of mighty fists for speed (which raw would turn you into a buzzsaw, but an faq clarifies oh hell no, mostly because it would turn you into a buzzsaw), or furyborn depending on how it works are two biggies.

but that slot is already free for all animals. So that can't really be the reason. You'd need to look at rings, belts, cloaks for something that "breaks the game" when given to an animal, and I agree that I don't think there's anything that does it.

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