Combat maneuvers in 2nd ed.

[Norlore]

In the light of a new edition I would like to bring up a discussion regarding combat maneuvers.
For me they are characterized by the following:

They are viable if you specialize in them (especially trip, disarm, sunder and feint do have alot of potential) and if you don't specialize in them you will extremely rarely use them. A well built character who has fully specialized into trip or disarm can trivialize quite a few encounters depending on the setup of the opponents. There are of course counters to this in locked gauntlets or for example creatures basically immune to trip.

This dynamic generally makes encounters with a specialized character in them very all or nothing, giving it a feeling similar to SoS spells.

Then we have some combat maneuver that in my group sees very little play which would be bullrush, overrun and similar. (Although they can contain interesting tactical positioning with the right terrain, the cost-for-investment of those feats aren't quite there.)

The current system works adequately but I believe there is room for improvement. Ideally I would like to see a system where my main attack against this type of foe won't be that I will attempt to trip them until I succeed but rather more dynamic tripping attempts throughout combat. Rather make it possible to always attempt to trip an opponent for example but make it very hard even with specialization if he is on his guard and then add conditions where you may get a free trip attempt on them with their defenses clearly lowered.

Considering the new critical fumble system I believe that opens up an opportunity for revising the system.

- What if everyone? (or all martials?) had the ability to use trip, disarm, etc without provoking AoO as a reaction but they could only do it if the opponent critically missed them in combat.
- Specific classes or abilities with other triggers, get a free bullrush if you critically hit someone? A free overrun on a successful charge attack?
- Feinting to open someone up for a combat maneuver?

This would of course require a rebalance of these abilities and what DCs you are required to hit but I believe it would be a more interesting system. What are your thoughts on the matter?

[GorzTheDark]

HAve you listened to the glasscanon playtest podcast? I can’t remember it clearly but in one fight they disarmed a skeleton and from the looks of it, combat maneuvers are some sort of skill check now that are opposed by an enemies skill dc/defense? so I guess cmb and cmd are a thing of the past. I don’t think he provoked an aoo either.

[dragonhunterq]

Just to confirm GorzTheDark:
54:10 Most of the manoeuvres — grabbing, disarming, tumbling, and tripping—are now associated with the Acrobatics or Athletics skills.

[pjrogers]

While we may not have CMB/CMD in PF2e, it appears that there will still be combat maneuvers. Combat maneuvers based on skill checks could be just as broken as the current CMB/CMD system. I hope the PF2e design team understands this (I strongly suspect that they do) and avoids the problems that plague the current system (as ably laid out by Nolore above).