Hello there. :-)
Now, this may or may not have been asked and answered before. If it has, apologies and please point me to the relevant thread and/or answer. If not, onward!
Let us say I want to make a Dex-focused melee warrior, specifically a Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 9, who will be dual-wielding longswords and using Dexterity to attack.
Now, the 1st level of Swashbuckler gives this (emphasis mine):
Swashbuckler Finesse (Ex): At 1st level, a swashbuckler gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and she can use her Charisma score in place of Intelligence as a prerequisite for combat feats. This ability counts as having the Weapon Finesse feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites.
Now, the idea is to have the Fighter, whose first and only Weapon Training will be Heavy Blades, take the feat Advanced Weapon Training (Fighter's Finesse) as soon as he is able (either using a general feat or a fighter bonus feat for that purpose, keeping in mind the above bold italicized part of Swashbuckler Finesse) and also use his 2nd Weapon Training (at fighter level 9/character level 10) to grab Effortless Dual-Wielding.
You are specially trained to use your weapon skills in new ways.
Prerequisites: Fighter level 5th, weapon training class feature.
Benefit: Select one advanced weapon training option, applying it to one fighter weapon group you have already selected with the weapon training class feature.
Special: This feat can be taken more than once, but at most once per 5 fighter levels.Special: Fighters that have the weapon masterAPG archetype can select this feat beginning at 4th level. The benefits of a weapon master’s advanced weapon training options apply only to his selected weapon rather than all weapons in the same fighter weapon group, and he can’t select the weapon specialist advanced weapon training option. A weapon master can select this feat as a bonus feat; if he does so, it doesn’t count for the purpose of the requirement that it can be taken at most once per 5 fighter levels.
Fighter's Finesse (Ex): The fighter gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with all melee weapons that belong to the associated fighter weapon group (even if they cannot normally be used with Weapon Finesse). The fighter must have the Weapon Finesse feat before choosing this option.
Effortless Dual-Wielding (Ex): The fighter treats all one-handed weapons that belong to the associated weapon group as though they were light weapons when determining his penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons.
Supposedly, he ends up dual-wielding longswords. He uses Dexterity to attack (via Fighter's Finesse, which he has taken thanks to the Advanced Weapon Training feat and Swashbuckler Finesse, specifically the ability's last sentence) and treats them as light weapons for the purpose of fighting with two weapons (via Effortless Dual-Wielding, which he has taken in place of his second Weapon Training class feature).
Is this correct and doable and legal and all that? I seem to think so, but I may be wrong.
Bumpity...?
The rules lawyer in me is inclined to say no. Swashbucklers Finesse says it counts as Weapon Finesse for feat prerequisites but, even though youre getting it through a feat in this example, Advanced Weapon Training is a class feature.
That being said, the part of me that feels that the paths to building dex based melee characters are to restricted would let you get away with it at my table.
Now, if it doesnt have to be long swords you could take EWP Sawtoothed Sabers and get the same job done quicker.
The rules lawyer in me is inclined to say no. Swashbucklers Finesse says it counts as Weapon Finesse for feat prerequisites but, even though youre getting it through a feat in this example, Advanced Weapon Training is a class feature.
That being said, the part of me that feels that the paths to building dex based melee characters are to restricted would let you get away with it at my table.
Now, if it doesnt have to be long swords you could take EWP Sawtoothed Sabers and get the same job done quicker.
Advanced Weapon Training is a combat Feat.
Benefit(s): Select one advanced weapon training option, applying it to one fighter weapon group you have already selected with the weapon training class feature.
Fighter levels and the class ability Weapon Training are the prereqs. Fighter's Finesse if the benefit received from having the feat.
Advanced Weapon Training is an additional class feature that was added to the Fighters existing Weapon Training class feature in the Weapon Master's Handbook.
The Weapon Master's Handbook also added the Advanced Weapon Training feat that lets the fighter choose an Advanced Weapon Training option in addition to the opportunities given during character progression.
If the fighter was trying to select Fighter's Finesse at level 9 instead of the normal Weapon Training progression then Swashbuckler's Finesse wouldn't count as a prerequisite because the fighter was using a class feature not a feat.
Now the question becomes, does the fact that the fighter is using the feat to access a class feature mean that the class features prerequisites count as feat prerequisites?
Advanced Weapon Training is an additional class feature that was added to the Fighters existing Weapon Training class feature in the Weapon Master's Handbook.
Follow the link I provided to the feat Advanced Weapon Training and read the benefits I quoted.
Fighter's Finesse is available through a feat provided the character meets the feat's prerequisites (which many classes are capable of, the fighter just gets access earlier and/or needs to spend fewer resources than most).
Example: An Arsenal Chaplin Warpriest meets all the prerequisites for, and can select, Advanced Weapon Training as his 6th level bonus feat.
I'm not arguing eligibility to take the feat. I'm questioning if the additional requirement that comes with fighters finesse gets superseded by taking the feat.
If the character had neither weapon finesse or swashbucklers finesse would that character still be able to take fighters finesse through the advanced weapon training feat?
Sooo...
Is it a hard no? Or a better-ask-your-GM no/maybe?
By the way, I have also found the following short thread that appears to confuse things slightly.
Any thoughts?
Thank you in advance (and after the fact for you guys you have already posted) for your insight.
I'm not arguing eligibility to take the feat. I'm questioning if the additional requirement that comes with fighters finesse gets superseded by taking the feat.
If the character had neither weapon finesse or swashbucklers finesse would that character still be able to take fighters finesse through the advanced weapon training feat?
A character must still meet any additional prerequisites imposed by the option chosen.
Fighter's Finesse is being gained as part of the Advanced Weapon Training feats, so Swashbuckler's finesse will meet the requirement, as it counts as Weapon Finesse.
Fighter's Finesse is the benifit gained by taking the feat. It is not a prerequisite. Swashbuckler's Finesse counts as weapon finesse for feat prerequisites, not feat benifits or at all for class features.
This ability counts as having the Weapon Finesse feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites.
The fighter must have the Weapon Finesse feat before choosing this option.
Emphasis mine.
a thing that is required as a prior condition for something else to happen or exist
Fighter's Finesse imposes an additional prerequisite on feat selection, which the swashbuckler's class ability Swashbuckler's Finesse fulfills.
Sooo...
Is it a hard no? Or a better-ask-your-GM no/maybe?
It's a because-Paizo-is-in-love-with-overly-narrow-language no.
The thing is this: Feats have a section called "Prerequisite(s)" - I see no reason to presume the term "feat prerequisites" (as found in the Swashbuckler Finesse description) alludes to anything else but precicely that and that alone. Just like how I believe that the phrase "benefits of feat" alludes to the feat's "benefits" section.
Of course, I'd always let it pass as a GM, because everything else is stupid.
Or, going by the less serious sidenote, just pick Weapon Finesse as a fighter bonus feat and then replace it with something else (after having chosen the Fighter's Finesse AWT) thanks to the fighter's often neglected ability to do so according to their Bonus Feats class feature, if I understand you correctly. :-)
You know, I do believe I have seen such a suggestion before on the boards as something that, going strictly by RAW and the exact words of the Fighter's Finesse description, should technically work and be considered legal.
Anyway, from what I can tell, what I am asking is a bit of a grey area. Not too much of a stretch to think that it does work that way, but not entirely clear. Either way, asking the GM just in case does seem advisable.
Or, going by the less serious sidenote, just pick Weapon Finesse as a fighter bonus feat and then replace it with something else (after having chosen the Fighter's Finesse AWT) thanks to the fighter's often neglected ability to do so according to their Bonus Feats class feature, if I understand you correctly. :-)
Sadly, doesn't work: "The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability." - the feat is being used as a prereq for the Fighter's Finesse ability. The retraining rules in UCamp have a similar wording.
What you could do is grab Warrior Spirit with the AWT feat, use it just before levelup to gain the Training (Weapon Finesse) enchantment, and then retrain the AWT (Warrior Spirit) feat to AWT (Fighter's Finesse).
The irony behind these options is that they're also based on overly narrow language - Training says the feat granted can't be used as a prereq for "any other feats", so if you take the almost identically wording in Swashbuckler's Finesse literal, there's basically no reason not to do the same here.
Or, going by the less serious sidenote, just pick Weapon Finesse as a fighter bonus feat and then replace it with something else (after having chosen the Fighter's Finesse AWT) thanks to the fighter's often neglected ability to do so according to their Bonus Feats class feature, if I understand you correctly. :-)Sadly, doesn't work: "The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability." - the feat is being used as a prereq for the Fighter's Finesse ability. The retraining rules in UCamp have a similar wording.
What you could do is grab Warrior Spirit with the AWT feat, use it just before levelup to gain the Training (Weapon Finesse) enchantment, and then retrain the AWT (Warrior Spirit) feat to AWT (Fighter's Finesse).
The irony behind these options is that they're also based on overly narrow language - Training says the feat granted can't be used as a prereq for "any other feats", so if you take the almost identically wording in Swashbuckler's Finesse literal, there's basically no reason not to do the same here.
If the argument is that Weapon Finesse is a prerequisite, Swashbuckler Finesse fulfills it.
If the argument is that Weapon Finesse is not a prerequisite, but an additional requirement for initial selection of Fighter's Finesse, trading away Weapon Finesse after selection is legal.
This is the trap of overly pedantic reading. You can't just choose to stop at the desired result. You have to follow through until all the implications are resolved.