Does ability damage affect monster special ability DCs?

[Pax Miles]

Probably covered somewhere, but wasn't directly stated in the CRB under ability damage (I may just have an old version).

If I deal CHA damage to a Monster, would it affect the save DCs of thier CHA based special abilities?

For a specific example, the Corpse Hunter ranger archetype can deal CHA damage to undead. If she targets a Mummy, and successfully deals 2 points of CHA damage, would this reduce the DCs of the Mummy's special abilities which are CHA based (Mummy Rot and Aura of Despair)?

I'm preparing to run a scenario that uses a mummy and it just occured to me that this might be the point of the Corpse Hunter's ability, which I had always kinda wondered what it was for...

[Omnius]

Yes, if the associated ability score drops, DCs based on those ability scores also drop.

[Diego Rossi]

About Corpse Hunter:
- DCs of the CHA based abilities;
- hit points and Fortitude saves;
- AC for some ot them;
- other CHA based ability;
are all affected by CHA damage.

[Lady-J]

everything that has been stated here is true however one thing that charisma damage doesn't do is prevent them from using those abilities only charisma drain will do that pretty much everything else damage will effect

[Pax Miles]

Thanks to all for clarifying this one.

Diego Rossi wrote:

About Corpse Hunter:

- DCs of the CHA based abilities;
- hit points and Fortitude saves;
- AC for some ot them;
- other CHA based ability;
are all affected by CHA damage.

That's right...CHA is the undead CON mod. So this is actually pretty powerful, assuming you face undead a lot.

[Zarius]

Yeah. If you drop the relevant stat to a special ability (assuming it has one, a few don't), you drop it's DC.

[Firewarrior44]

Ability Damage wrote:

Charisma: Damage to your Charisma score causes you to take penalties on Charisma-based skill checks. This penalty also applies to any spell DCs based off Charisma and the DC to resist your channeled energy.

Special Abilities are not listed as a thing that is reduced / takes a penalty. it appears to me, RAW it has not effect.

Is there another source someone can cite?

[Omnius]

It doesn't have to be.

That list is a convenience and a reminder. Not a rule unto itself.

Special ability DCs are the result of math based on, in part, ability score. If you change the ability score, the math resulting in the special ability DCs change. So, per the rules for determining the DCs of the special abilities, the DCs for said special abilities change.

[Firewarrior44]

Ability damage doesn't change a score. It inflicts a penalty per 2 points accrued.

Ability Drain actually modifies the ability score.

Ability Damage wrote:

Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.

For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.

Drain wrote:

Ability Drain: Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of spells such as restoration.

OP was asking about damage not drain, unless I misunderstood. Which as far as i'm aware (per what I've quoted so far) Cha damage does not lower the Mummies abilities unless there's some other rule that people are referencing.

[David knott 242]

The save DC is a statistic based on the damaged ability score, so it is penalized by ability score damage.

[Zarius]

From the Kurobozu:

Sage's Bane wrote:

Any target struck by a kurobozu’s unarmed strike takes 1d4 points of Wisdom damage and loses an equal amount of ki (Fortitude DC 18 negates both). For every point of Wisdom damage a kurobozu deals, it heals 5 hit points. Hit points received in excess of the creature’s normal total are treated as temporary hit points and dissipate after 1 minute. The save DC is Wisdom-based.

If a DC is wisdom-based, and the attacking creatures wisdom modifier drops, the DC drops. That's LITERALLY how it works.

To quote YOUL "skills and statistics that are based on that ability." The DC of an attack that is based on that ability is a statistic based on that ability. You argued your own case.

[Firewarrior44]

See here for the source, but what I quoted then clarifies that there is a explicit list of things it changes

Quote:

For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.

Specifically for Wisdom and Charisma:

Quote:

Wisdom: Damage to your Wisdom score causes you to take penalties on Wisdom-based skill checks and Will saving throws. This penalty also applies to any spell DCs based on Wisdom.

Charisma: Damage to your Charisma score causes you to take penalties on Charisma-based skill checks. This penalty also applies to any spell DCs based off Charisma and the DC to resist your channeled energy.

Neither mentions special ability DC's outside of Channel energy Specifically for Charisma. If it was intended to apply to all special abilities would it not just say that (as that would also catch channel energy as it's a supernatural ability)?

[Omnius]

You're overthinking this, bud.

[Firewarrior44]

I just want someone to point to a rule that expands a Charisma damage penalty to the DC's of special abilities.

Without such a rule Cha based supernatural abilities besides channel energy are not affected by Charisma damage only Drain.

[Zarius]

So, you're trying to say that... because the Charisma list doesn't explicitly list SLAs, which are NOT spells, my Kitsune's Magic Tail SLAs aren't dropped due to charisma damage? Because that's what you're trying to say.

[blahpers]

Considering the language behind this FAQ, I'd be hard convinced to not apply it to ability score damage as well.

[Zarius]

BLAPHERS, MY MAN! COMING OUT OF NOWHERE WITH THE SAVE!!! There you go, Fire. Literally, that FAQ says exactly what you wanted a rule saying.

[Firewarrior44]

No it doesn't, It doesn't address or interact with Ability damage at all, it addresses temporary increases to an ability score.

Ability Damage does not lower or change an ability score. It applies a penalty to specific things for every 2 points of damage you have.

Ability Drain does lower an ability score and would reduce Ability DC's. This is not the point in contention.

[Cavall]

Ok man. So apply the penalty every 2 points and move on.

[blahpers]

I'd FAQ it just for kicks, but something tells me we aren't going to get many more FAQs for this game.