It says in the rules for rage that the rage ends immediately if the barbarian falls unconcious.
It also says that the bonus HP you gain from raging are not lost first like temporary HPs, which means when the rage ends you subtract the bonus HP from the current HP.
I know it says "places her in peril of death", but after a certain level its not mere peril anymore, it's insant kill without anything you can do.
Lets look at an 8th level barbarian with 16 con.
He rages, getting +4 con, which equals 2 HP/level = 16 HP.
Now he gets beaten into the negatives, let's be nice and say it's just -1 HP.
Rage automatically ends now, the 16 HP get removed. -17 HP. Dead.
Is that really like that or am I missing something?
That seems to become more and more dangerous the higher you get, which is pretty unique, most stuff becomes less dangerous.
As far as I can tell, that does indeed appear to be the case.
To the best of my understanding, this is correct.
IMO, the barbarian is the saddest martial class. Nobody else pays so dearly for their signature class ability.
It sort of makes the "don't stop raging when unconscious" feat rather important. If I could remember what it was called, I'd have just said that. I'm of the opinion that it ought to be a class feature for barbarians after a certain level.
It sort of makes the "don't stop raging when unconscious" feat rather important. If I could remember what it was called, I'd have just said that. I'm of the opinion that it ought to be a class feature for barbarians after a certain level.
Ah, I found it after some searching, must have missed it before.
Raging Vitality is the name. And yes, I agree it seems pretty much mandatory after around level 5.
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It sort of makes the "don't stop raging when unconscious" feat rather important. If I could remember what it was called, I'd have just said that. I'm of the opinion that it ought to be a class feature for barbarians after a certain level.Ah, I found it after some searching, must have missed it before.
Raging Vitality is the name. And yes, I agree it seems pretty much mandatory after around level 5.
I have this for my PS barbarian. I only took it for the +2 CON when raging. It wasn't until a couple of weeks later that I noticed it allows you to continue to rage when unconscious. Plus your CON score stays 6 higher thus giving you more negative hp. Best barbar feat.
Yeah, my party's barbarian just realized this at level 6... I suggested the feat to him a few levels ago, but he has yet to take it... We shall see how long Dave the Barbarian lasts... :) (No relation to the poster of the same name.)
Naturally, this makes the Diehard feat a very attractive choice for Barbarians.
nofi, but what self respecting 8th level barbarian would have just 16 con? You can often start with 16 con at level 1. Add in 2 extra abilities by level 8 and possibly racial bonuses.And by level 8, I so would have found some con boosting equipment.
P.S. The half Orc Ferocity seem interesting too. As does the rage power Renewed Vigor.
He might have some equipment to boost con of course, it was just an example.
A level 20 Barbarian with 40 con (which is probably out of reach even then) will need to be 40 HP in the positive or he's dead when he ends rage. So he's double dead when falling unconcious. (of course, he'd be stupid to end the rage with just 30 HP left, I'm just saying there's always a level for a given con score at which Unconcious equals death for a barb)Also if said barbarian has 22 con instead of 16 he just has to be brought to -6 HP instead of -1 to be instant dead, not that much of a difference.
As for level increase and racial boni... I would say most barbs put those in Strength not con.
I guess Diehard is another option and would make Raging Vigor obsolete (at least the "keep raging" part), as you wouldn't fall unconcious when you go into the negatives and so you wouldn't stop raging in the first place.
I just House-ruled that the Barb gets temporary hit points equal to what ever his increased Con score would grant under the normal rules.
Solves the problem.
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I just House-ruled that the Barb gets temporary hit points equal to what ever his increased Con score would grant under the normal rules.
Solves the problem.
We do something similar, except the "temporary pool" as we call it also increases to hit and damage bonuses.
Poor barbarian needed some help, after all. They're basically a "crash test dummy" class.
this has been brought up multiple times, during core rules playtest and after.
clearly paizo agreed it was in issue, which is why raging vitality was released, but having a feat tax to not be killed by your class abiliies doesn´t sit right with me.
an ´alternate solution´ that occured to me was that instead of giving out HPs which will be taken back later (which is the crux of the problem), why not NOT allow the Rage CON bonus to increase HPs, but instead have it shift the disabled/unconscious/death point progressively ´to the left´ (into negatives) by the same amount of HPs. the crux of this is that the death point ALWAYS remains in this ´left shifted´ position (eventually getting into huge negative numbers), while disabled/unconscious shift back to normal when not raging... meaning the barbarian needs to heal all the damage (unlike temp HPs) and will fall unconscious (at very low HPs, also meaning stabilization will be difficult) in situations that would kill them under the current RAW.
that results in some side-benefits (large death point margin even when fighting outside of rage, though consciousness isn´t sustained unless Raging), as well as synergizing well with Die-Hard/Ferocity via the same effect. on the other hand, when fully using that huge negative HP margin before point of death, even big Fort Save Barbarians can´t make those Saves when DC equals Negative HP score, so that HP margin is just the number of rounds until they bleed out. ...so it seems balanced, and still very in line with ´flavor´ to me.
hopefully that`s useful to somebody...
an ´alternate solution´ that occured to me was that instead of giving out HPs which will be taken back later (which is the crux of the problem), why not NOT allow the Rage CON bonus to increase HPs, but instead have it shift the disabled/unconscious/death point progressively ´to the left´ (into negatives) by the same amount of HPs.
Well you could say that this margin is already shifted in a way, just realised that
Say that 8th level barbarian from the first post has 100 HP. Without raging he would die after receiving 116 damage, and be unable to act after -101 HP
Now with raging he also dies after 116 damage, but is still able to act the entire time.
Lower level barbarian would still die at 116 damage, but be able to act to some point between 102 and 116 depending on level (5th level till 110 for example)
Now lets take a 10th level barbarian, with 120 HP and 16 con (yeah he might have magic items, but doesn't matter, just shifts it by a few HP). Non-raging death after 136 HP, Raging (+20 HP) after 140 HP (and able to still act at -139 for example when he would usually be dead already)
So I guess when you look at it that way, it seems more like a free sort of diehard feat (worse at low levels better at high), which stacks with Raging vitality for more "buffer space" and even the actual Diehard for even more.
Lets look at that 10th level barb with both feats:
- +10 more HP due to raging vitality
- doesn't fall unconcious at 0, so can go down to -16 before he dies
so that 120 HP barbarian can take 166 damage before he dies and can act the entire time.
- Without die hard its still 166 till death, but unconcious from 150 on.
- Without raging vitality its unconcious/death at 156.
So I'd say Raging Vitality is the priority to get, diehard if you have the feat for it at some piont is nice too.
This happened in a 3.5 game I was in (playing World's Largest Dungeon), and the GM had warned us that character level 6 was the cut-off point at which barbarians started dying (although to be fair, since the damage was going up and the margin got smaller, levels 4-5 were probably almost certain to kill a barbarian too).
Anyway, since the rules said nothing about stopping raging when unconscious (although I think the spirit of the rules would suggest that it does stop), I searched the WotC FAQ, and lo and behold they said something along the lines of "I hope for barbarians' sake that it does keep going, or there will be many more dead barbarians on the field". Our GM then said that the FAQ was irrelevant. Oh well, Jinty's barbarian was eaten by a barghest the following round, so whether he was dead at the time was a moot point.
Fast forward a few years, and I've come to realise that the problem is not that rage stops, but that you die at -10. You can't even say -(10+character level), because the rage gives up to +4*level by level 20, so a barbarian is going to lose 80 HP when they go unconscious.
If I ever run a game, one houserule is: you die at -1/4 of your regular HP, (a 4e rule that I quite like). Note: I believe one of Gary Gygax's own house rules was dead at -(1+level), which I like too. However, even with +3 CON bonus and extra HP at every level, your barbarian's average HP are going to be 215 at level 20 before rage, so that's dead at -53.
I guess the high level barbarian is just toast without some keep-going feat, HP granted as temporary HP (essentially giving you a grace period), or a change in the way dead is handled (e.g. fort save vs death, DC somehow depends on how many HP you've lost). I'd probably favour the last one, as it's less book-keeping all round.
In my current Pathfinder game I am playtesting a house rule, which does not just affect barbarians, but they certainly benefit a lot from it. Inspired by Green Ronin's Dragon Age RPG I have gotten rid of negative hit points altogether. When reduced to below 0 hit points characters fall unconscious and start dying, but they don't have a negative hit point total. Instead they die at the end of (2 + Con bonus) rounds unless someone stabilises them or they receive healing of some sort. All other rules (i.e. the Diehard feat, the stabilise spell, etc.) apply normally. I have not quite decided yet how to handle stabilisation rolls, but it will probably be a Constitution check each round with a DC of [10 + 2x(number of rounds they have been dying for)]. For barbarians the number of rounds is determined by their non-raging Con bonus.
I introduced this rule after a particularly viscious fight during which the party suffered two character deaths due to massive critical hits from ogres. One of the characters was a barbarian who barely survived the damage from the hit, but then died when his rage ended due to him being unconscious. I have only just started using the rule, so I do not know yet how well it will work, but my players all like the idea.
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It sort of makes the "don't stop raging when unconscious" feat rather important. If I could remember what it was called, I'd have just said that. I'm of the opinion that it ought to be a class feature for barbarians after a certain level.Ah, I found it after some searching, must have missed it before.
Raging Vitality is the name. And yes, I agree it seems pretty much mandatory after around level 5.
Where is the feat described? I cannot find it in the PRD or on d20pfsrd.com.
Where is the feat described? I cannot find it in the PRD or on d20pfsrd.com.It sort of makes the "don't stop raging when unconscious" feat rather important. If I could remember what it was called, I'd have just said that. I'm of the opinion that it ought to be a class feature for barbarians after a certain level.Ah, I found it after some searching, must have missed it before.
Raging Vitality is the name. And yes, I agree it seems pretty much mandatory after around level 5.
I didn't fint it at first either, since I had looked in combat feats, but its a general feat.
Here you go|
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It says in the rules for rage that the rage ends immediately if the barbarian falls unconcious.
It also says that the bonus HP you gain from raging are not lost first like temporary HPs, which means when the rage ends you subtract the bonus HP from the current HP.I know it says "places her in peril of death", but after a certain level its not mere peril anymore, it's insant kill without anything you can do.
Lets look at an 8th level barbarian with 16 con.
He rages, getting +4 con, which equals 2 HP/level = 16 HP.
Now he gets beaten into the negatives, let's be nice and say it's just -1 HP.
Rage automatically ends now, the 16 HP get removed. -17 HP. Dead.Is that really like that or am I missing something?
That seems to become more and more dangerous the higher you get, which is pretty unique, most stuff becomes less dangerous.
I don't think this is new. 3.5 barbarian had the same problem as far as I remember. I never liked that they definitely need healing to risk immediate death upon end of rage.
I don't think this is new. 3.5 barbarian had the same problem as far as I remember. I never liked that they definitely need healing to risk immediate death upon end of rage.It says in the rules for rage that the rage ends immediately if the barbarian falls unconcious.
It also says that the bonus HP you gain from raging are not lost first like temporary HPs, which means when the rage ends you subtract the bonus HP from the current HP.I know it says "places her in peril of death", but after a certain level its not mere peril anymore, it's insant kill without anything you can do.
Lets look at an 8th level barbarian with 16 con.
He rages, getting +4 con, which equals 2 HP/level = 16 HP.
Now he gets beaten into the negatives, let's be nice and say it's just -1 HP.
Rage automatically ends now, the 16 HP get removed. -17 HP. Dead.Is that really like that or am I missing something?
That seems to become more and more dangerous the higher you get, which is pretty unique, most stuff becomes less dangerous.
Nope only when DM houseruled is it the same situation. Normally Rage continues till you choose to end it or it runs out of duration.
It's not a great solution , but my barbarian likes to keep some barbarian chew in one cheek. That lingering extra 1 round of rage comes in handy when I go unconscious.
Fast forward a few years, and I've come to realise that the problem is not that rage stops, but that you die at -10. You can't even say -(10+character level), because the rage gives up to +4*level by level 20, so a barbarian is going to lose 80 HP when they go unconscious.
Mmmh now you die at -Con ;)
It's better but I agree that, as for the barbarian rules, it's slightly not enough... Maybe giving him 1/4 of his rage hit point bonus as real temporary hit point... Think this is enough to balance a bit... ;)
You could just remove the additional hit points. In my opinion, if you are that afraid of dying, you shouldn't have become a barbarian.
Exactly. The drawbacks to the bonus hit points from barbarian rage are certainly not worse than not having those bonus hit points in the first place (i.e. if you're dead with rage, you would have been dead without rage).
If your barbarian is worried about dying, he can always fall on the floor and roll into the fetal position once he gets low on HP. Either that, or run screaming from the fight like a little girl.
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For the humour-impaired: just kidding, folks.
Oh I'm not afraid of dying, if I was I wouldn't make a naked half-elf barbarian wielding a two-hander. I was merely trying to find out if I understood that rule correctly or if there was something I missed.
Like the raging vitality feat that I may have missed otherwise.
edit: naked in the sense of no armor, not as in naked.
I agree about raging vitality being a must have. Mt lvl 8 barbarian in our current game would have died about 3x by now without it. If I'm under 8 hps when rage turns off I die.
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Also, the Rage power Raging Vigor helps this out too:
Renewed Vigor (Ex): As a standard action, the barbarian heals 1d8 points of damage + her Constitution modifier. For every four levels the barbarian has attained above 4th, this amount of damage healed increases by 1d8, to a maximum of 5d8 at 20th level. A barbarian must be at least 4th level before selecting this power. This power can be used only once per day and only while raging.
Oh I'm not afraid of dying, if I was I wouldn't make a naked half-elf barbarian wielding a two-hander. I was merely trying to find out if I understood that rule correctly or if there was something I missed.
Like the raging vitality feat that I may have missed otherwise.
Sure. It just confuses me every time I hear people say something like "rage killed my barbarian!" rather than "hit point damage killed my barbarian and rage was largely irrelevant!".
Sure. It just confuses me every time I hear people say something like "rage killed my barbarian!" rather than "hit point damage killed my barbarian and rage was largely irrelevant!".Oh I'm not afraid of dying, if I was I wouldn't make a naked half-elf barbarian wielding a two-hander. I was merely trying to find out if I understood that rule correctly or if there was something I missed.
Like the raging vitality feat that I may have missed otherwise.
I have to agree with that. However at first glance it looks like rage is to blame, but when you look at it closer, there's no instance that you die with rage that you would have survived without. Worst case you die at the same time.
But plenty where you're still up and kicking while being unconcious/dead without rage.Just it's not instantly obvious, you need to write down a few numbers and compare (like I did somewhere in the middle of this thread.
Rage is like Diehard and Orc Ferocity in this way. Most things quit before they're dead. Raging barbarians, characters with Diehard, and orcs don't. They're either still up or they're dead, no middle ground*.
(*Except possibly nonlethal damage.)