So I know these don't stack when cast as one time spells as they are both "Size Bonuses." However, if someone were to change their size with "Enlarge person" & "Permanency," Would you consider their base size now changed so they are no longer under the effects of a "Size Bonus?" If that was the case Righteous Might should be able to be used.
What are some peoples thoughts on this?
This is the Adventure Card Game rules forum so I have flagged this to be moved.
I would say no. Permanency doesn't change any of the rules around the Enlarge Person spell. Here's an older thread on this type of thing.
It seems you are correct, I must have miss-clicked the forum I was looking for. Thank you.
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Both magic.
Both change your size.
They don’t stack.
Permancied spells don’t stop being magic or change your base at all.
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There was a similar discussion some day ago. Size bonuses are size bonuses and don't stack. Even the giant creature template (that change you in a fundamental way) and enlarge stat bonuses wouldn't stack as they are size bonuses.
A permanent enlarge is way less than a template, it is simply a spell that work forever until cancelled. So it stack even less.
I assumed as much, and agree. Just figured I would toss the question out here in case someone had a piece of knowledge I didn't on it. i would have loved to be a large creature that uses Righteous Might to a become Huge in an attempt to slaughter Demons.
You wanna be bigger? Make a cloud giant bigger, then magic jar it.
What about having Eidolon with Large evolution and Enlarge Person?
What if this evolution is from Evolution Surge spell, does it change anything?
What about having Eidolon with Large evolution and Enlarge Person?
What if this evolution is from Evolution Surge spell, does it change anything?
The former works. Magic size increases don’t stack, but Large is Ex.
The second one is GM call, but probably not. It’s being provided by a spell, and it’d stop in an anti-magic field.
No, size increases don't stack by default. The large evolution can be taken twice to make the eidolon huge per the text of the evolution.What about having Eidolon with Large evolution and Enlarge Person?
What if this evolution is from Evolution Surge spell, does it change anything?
The Large (and Huge) evolutions are (EX) abilities, not magical effects. They do stack with Enlarge Person
Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack.
Emphasis mine.
Evolutions change the default characteristics of the eidolon. They determine the eidolon's baseline at the time of summoning. An eidolon with the Large Evolution is simply a large creature. Magic and other effects may alter this, but it is the eidolon's default size after you strip all effects from it.
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What about having Eidolon with Large evolution and Enlarge Person?
What if this evolution is from Evolution Surge spell, does it change anything?
The former works. Magic size increases don’t stack, but Large is Ex.
The second one is GM call, but probably not. It’s being provided by a spell, and it’d stop in an anti-magic field.
No it doesn't. It doesn't work any more than a +1 Bashing Spiked Heavy Shield would grant 2d6 damage dice, and we have a PDT comment outright saying that's not possible in the rules.
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No, size increases don't stack by default. The large evolution can be taken twice to make the eidolon huge per the text of the evolution.What about having Eidolon with Large evolution and Enlarge Person?
What if this evolution is from Evolution Surge spell, does it change anything?
The Large (and Huge) evolutions are (EX) abilities, not magical effects. They do stack with Enlarge Person
Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack.Emphasis mine.
Evolutions change the default characteristics of the eidolon. They determine the eidolon's baseline at the time of summoning. An eidolon with the Large Evolution is simply a large creature. Magic and other effects may alter this, but it is the eidolon's default size after you strip all effects from it.
Darksol is right, size increases don't stack (barring explicit exceptions), but, in every instance, the stat bonuses from the size increase don't.
So the result is that even if you find a way to stack two size increases, you get all the drawbacks and very few of the advantages.BTW, you don't take the large evolution twice, the huge evolution replace the large evolution.
"Large (Ex): An eidolon grows in size, becoming Large.
....
If 6 additional evolution points are spent, the eidolon instead becomes Huge."
Citation:
Size increases and effective size increases: How does damage work if I have various effects that change my actual size, my effective size, and my damage dice?
As per the rules on size changes, size changes do not stack, so if you have multiple size changing effects (for instance an effect that increases your size by one step and another that increases your size by two steps), only the largest applies. The same is true of effective size increases (which includes “deal damage as if they were one size category larger than they actually are,” “your damage die type increases by one step,” and similar language). They don’t stack with each other, just take the biggest one. However, you can have one of each and they do work together (for example, enlarge person increasing your actual size to Large and a bashing shield increasing your shield’s effective size by two steps, for a total of 2d6 damage).
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The eidolon is large or huge, there's no increasing of size going on, that's just their size. Like a dragon as it grows and changes size, like a young creature going adult, or like an animal companion as it sizes up. All of these are natural changes and the creature is just now that size and any size changes work on it from this size.
No it doesn't. It doesn't work any more than a +1 Bashing Spiked Heavy Shield would grant 2d6 damage dice, and we have a PDT comment outright saying that's not possible in the rules.What about having Eidolon with Large evolution and Enlarge Person?
What if this evolution is from Evolution Surge spell, does it change anything?
The former works. Magic size increases don’t stack, but Large is Ex.
The second one is GM call, but probably not. It’s being provided by a spell, and it’d stop in an anti-magic field.
My argument is that it works like a large +1 Bashing Heavy Shield doing 2d6 damage.
Large isn’t a “one size bigger” effect, it sets the eidolon’s new size to large specifically.
The eidolon is large or huge, there's no increasing of size going on, that's just their size. Like a dragon as it grows and changes size, like a young creature going adult, or like an animal companion as it sizes up. All of these are natural changes and the creature is just now that size and any size changes work on it from this size.Not so:
An eidolon grows in size, becoming LargeEvolutions would certainly be considered effects, so other size changes wouldn't stack.
Which is the same for all the other things I listed.
At lv7 a lion compion becomes large.At some point in a creature's life it grows from a smaller size to their normal size.
A dragon grows and becomes larger as it ages.
It is a large thing now, not a medium thing with a size increaser on it.
No it doesn't. It doesn't work any more than a +1 Bashing Spiked Heavy Shield would grant 2d6 damage dice, and we have a PDT comment outright saying that's not possible in the rules.What about having Eidolon with Large evolution and Enlarge Person?
What if this evolution is from Evolution Surge spell, does it change anything?
The former works. Magic size increases don’t stack, but Large is Ex.
The second one is GM call, but probably not. It’s being provided by a spell, and it’d stop in an anti-magic field.
Are you now claiming [I]Enlarge Person won't work on a shield with the basing property?
Because that is the kind of comparison you are making.
Evolutions are neither virtual nor effects. They physically change the creature.
No, I'm claiming two effects which both change size (or effective size) don't stack, regardless of what type of effects they are (SU, SP, or EX).
These work because they are natural. But if an Eidolon evolves to be bigger that's not natural.
I don't understand
Evolution is natural change.
Eidolon's don't exist outside of the evolutions they have. Your eidolon is what it is. I don't have an effect on it to grow claws or to grow wings or to fly with the wings it has. Those are all just properties of it that I can change.
No, I'm claiming two effects which both change size (or effective size) don't stack, regardless of what type of effects they are (SU, SP, or EX).
While true it doesn't have anything to do with the Eidolon since it being large isn't an effect changing its size.
No, I'm claiming two effects which both change size (or effective size) don't stack, regardless of what type of effects they are (SU, SP, or EX).While true it doesn't have anything to do with the Eidolon since it being large isn't an effect changing its size.
Yes it is. The Large evolution is an EX ability.
Yes it is. The Large evolution is an EX ability.No, I'm claiming two effects which both change size (or effective size) don't stack, regardless of what type of effects they are (SU, SP, or EX).While true it doesn't have anything to do with the Eidolon since it being large isn't an effect changing its size.
So then are you saying that the animal companion growing sizes is a size effect? That dragon's aging is a size effect?
The evolution just makes the eidolon large, that's the eidolon's size. It's not an effect changing the eidolon's size, the eidolon is just naturally large now.
The eidolon is large or huge, there's no increasing of size going on, that's just their size. Like a dragon as it grows and changes size, like a young creature going adult, or like an animal companion as it sizes up. All of these are natural changes and the creature is just now that size and any size changes work on it from this size.Not so:
An eidolon grows in size, becoming LargeEvolutions would certainly be considered effects, so other size changes wouldn't stack.
Growth due to aging would not be considered an effect as that is the natural progression of that creature. Similar to animal companions, dragons grow naturally and that growth would stack with size changing effects.
An eidolon that takes the appropriate evolutions also experiences growth over time.
Enlarge Person is very specific in when the spell does not stack.
The eidolon's evolutions are not magical effects; Enlarge Person stacks.
No it doesn't. It doesn't work any more than a +1 Bashing Spiked Heavy Shield would grant 2d6 damage dice, and we have a PDT comment outright saying that's not possible in the rules.
Funny thing though; bashing and armor spikes both stack with non-virtual size increase. E.g. Enlarge Person and large/huge shields. An enlarged person with a large heavy bashing shield deals 2d8 damage dice.
An eidolon with Large or Huge evolutions is not under an effect. It can benefit from both magical effects increasing physical size and virtual size increases. E.g. the spell Strongjaw is an effective size increase that will allow a huge eidolon to resolve its attacks as a colossal creature.
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Saying enlarge person doesn't work on a large eidolon is literally not different than saying enlarge doesn't work on a large creature or saying impact doesn't work on a large weapon. There are two types of size effects, effective and actual enlargement. Actual changes in sizes either by age, evolution or by permanent non-magical means are not related by the faq. If there was an ex-ability that said you become a hill giant and gain all the hill giant effects except you maintain the ability you used to change form, you could also enlarge. (note I believe there is an actual ability that says you change into a large orc so this isn't entirely hypothetical.) The eidolon evolution isn't as enlarge person, it isn't a polymorph spell, it isn't a spell. It is that the eidolon is now large. All of the eidolon's every is typed, it having arms is a typed as Ex. If you are going to assert that the eidolon's ex-abilities are not subject to rational discretion then remember that then they are all added features, typed as ex-abilities, that add to the base eidolon. Thus if you polymorph an eidolon it gains every single ex ability as a (quote=polymorph rules) You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. (/quote) So if you baleful polyymorph my eidolon into a squirrel it is now a huge flying fire breathing squirrel that gains five attacks an additional +6 Str and pounce. Nope it certainly 100% works right now. But to any paizo rules people keep in mind that the latter thing occurs if your not careful about the ruling.
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The eidolon is large or huge, there's no increasing of size going on, that's just their size. Like a dragon as it grows and changes size, like a young creature going adult, or like an animal companion as it sizes up. All of these are natural changes and the creature is just now that size and any size changes work on it from this size.Not so:
An eidolon grows in size, becoming LargeEvolutions would certainly be considered effects, so other size changes wouldn't stack.
Growth due to aging would not be considered an effect as that is the natural progression of that creature. Similar to animal companions, dragons grow naturally and that growth would stack with size changing effects.
An eidolon that takes the appropriate evolutions also experiences growth over time.
Enlarge Person is very specific in when the spell does not stack.
The eidolon's evolutions are not magical effects; Enlarge Person stacks.
No it doesn't. It doesn't work any more than a +1 Bashing Spiked Heavy Shield would grant 2d6 damage dice, and we have a PDT comment outright saying that's not possible in the rules.Funny thing though; bashing and armor spikes both stack with non-virtual size increase. E.g. Enlarge Person and large/huge shields. An enlarged person with a large heavy bashing shield deals 2d8 damage dice.
An eidolon with Large or Huge evolutions is not under an effect. It can benefit from both magical effects increasing physical size and virtual size increases. E.g. the spell Strongjaw is an effective size increase that will allow a huge eidolon to resolve its attacks as a colossal creature.
Also a huge eidolon enlarged to gargantuan then strongjawed attacks at colossal+1 or as i would like to define now as "Mega-Colossal®"
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The eidolon is large or huge, there's no increasing of size going on, that's just their size. Like a dragon as it grows and changes size, like a young creature going adult, or like an animal companion as it sizes up. All of these are natural changes and the creature is just now that size and any size changes work on it from this size.Not so:
An eidolon grows in size, becoming LargeEvolutions would certainly be considered effects, so other size changes wouldn't stack.
Growth due to aging would not be considered an effect as that is the natural progression of that creature. Similar to animal companions, dragons grow naturally and that growth would stack with size changing effects.
An eidolon that takes the appropriate evolutions also experiences growth over time.
Enlarge Person is very specific in when the spell does not stack.
The eidolon's evolutions are not magical effects; Enlarge Person stacks.
Any effect that increases size does not stack with any other effect that increases size, whether magical or not per the FAQ.
Yes I agree what the faq says is that. I think the crux of the two sides argument is currently whether or not evolutions are effects or not. Ex abilities, as well as evolutions, are not effects by definition so currently, we are looking at what is defined as an "effect." I believe that exact question has been asked before and the answer is what is and is not an effect is GM discretion.
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Given that evolutions can be given and taken away, it is clear that they are effects. For things that are a locked in natural progression I can see the argument that they aren't effects, but evolutions don't fit that model.Yes I agree what the faq says is that. I think the crux of the two sides argument is currently whether or not evolutions are effects or not. Ex abilities, as well as evolutions, are not effects by definition so currently, we are looking at what is defined as an "effect." I believe that exact question has been asked before and the answer is what is and is not an effect is GM discretion.The eidolon is large or huge, there's no increasing of size going on, that's just their size. Like a dragon as it grows and changes size, like a young creature going adult, or like an animal companion as it sizes up. All of these are natural changes and the creature is just now that size and any size changes work on it from this size.Not so:
An eidolon grows in size, becoming LargeEvolutions would certainly be considered effects, so other size changes wouldn't stack.
Growth due to aging would not be considered an effect as that is the natural progression of that creature. Similar to animal companions, dragons grow naturally and that growth would stack with size changing effects.
An eidolon that takes the appropriate evolutions also experiences growth over time.
Enlarge Person is very specific in when the spell does not stack.
The eidolon's evolutions are not magical effects; Enlarge Person stacks.
Any effect that increases size does not stack with any other effect that increases size, whether magical or not per the FAQ.
Thus as stated above, they are ex effects that give you abilities thus are not subject to change from polymorph abilities. They are all applied to any creature the eidolon is changed into. My point is that currently all we have is effects are GM discretion and the later is more OP IMO. Just keep in mind if you decide they are effects I no longer have to spend any evo points on size, pounce, flight, physical stats, or my to gain attacks.
Yes it is. The Large evolution is an EX ability.No, I'm claiming two effects which both change size (or effective size) don't stack, regardless of what type of effects they are (SU, SP, or EX).While true it doesn't have anything to do with the Eidolon since it being large isn't an effect changing its size.So then are you saying that the animal companion growing sizes is a size effect? That dragon's aging is a size effect?
The evolution just makes the eidolon large, that's the eidolon's size. It's not an effect changing the eidolon's size, the eidolon is just naturally large now.
Yes, it is, but There is text saying it replaces the base size of the creature.
There is no text in the evolution that says the effect stacks with other size increasing abilities, or that this new size is the base size of the creature now, so you're going to run into a lot of table variation with that ideal.
@ Volkard: A Heavy Shield does 1d4 damage. Bumping it to large size makes it 1d6. Applying Bashing makes it 2d6. 2d8 is not possible.
So its 2 ways to see it:
a) Evolution is size increasing effect so dont stack.
b) Evolution explicitly says Large, so it is effect that sets size rather than increases it (cos it does not mention size category), so it stack with Enlarge.
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I'm gonna need some serious convincing that the Large evolution doesn't actually set the base size of the creature to Large. Next I'll hear that a child can't be affected by reduce person because they have the young template.
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Paizo had two chances to specify that the bonuses to strength and constitution were size bonuses rather than untyped bonuses but declined to do so both times.
Also, in the absence of magic, an eidolon who got the Large/Huge evolution as a standard evolution (vice an Evolution Surge spell) is permanently at that size.
Finally, if the Large/Huge evolution is treated as size changing magic, wouldn't that disallow the standard tactic of casting Reduce Person on a Large or Huge eidolon to allow them to slip through a space that would otherwise be too small for them?
I'm gonna need some serious convincing that the Large evolution doesn't actually set the base size of the creature to Large. Next I'll hear that a child can't be affected by reduce person because they have the young template.
An eidolon grows in size, becoming Large. The eidolon gains a +8 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Constitution, and a +2 bonus to its natural armor. It takes a –2 penalty to its Dexterity. This size change also gives the creature a –1 size penalty to its AC and on attack rolls, a +1 bonus to its CMB and CMD, a –2 penalty on Fly skill checks, and a –4 penalty on Stealth skill checks. If the eidolon has the biped base form, it also gains 10-foot reach. Any reach evolutions the eidolon possesses are added to this total. The eidolon must be Medium to take this evolution. The summoner must be at least 8th level before selecting this evolution.
If 6 additional evolution points are spent, the eidolon instead becomes Huge. The eidolon gains a +16 bonus to Strength, a +8 bonus to Constitution, and a +5 bonus to its natural armor. It takes a –4 penalty to its Dexterity. This size change also give the creature a –2 size penalty to its AC and attack rolls, a +2 bonus to its CMB and CMD, 10-foot reach, a –4 penalty on Fly skill checks, and a –8 penalty on Stealth skill checks. If the eidolon has the biped base form, its reach increases to 15 feet (10 feet for all other base forms). Any reach evolutions the eidolon possesses are added to this total. These bonuses and penalties replace, and do not stack with, those gained from becoming Large. The summoner must be at least 13th level before selecting this option.
The ability increase evolution costs twice as much (4 evolution points) when adding to the Strength or Constitution scores of a Large or Huge eidolon.
Nothing there says it replaces his base size or that it stacks with other size increasing effects, and it's listed as an EX ability, so there's no way it stacks with other size increasing effects any more than shield spikes stacking with a Bashing shield.
@ David Knott 242: Doesn't matter, the effect won't stack with other size increasing abilities.
As for them getting the evolution naturally, see my argument above.
Nothing there says it replaces his base size or that it stacks with other size increasing effects, and it's listed as an EX ability, so there's no way it stacks with other...
So are you saying that a child can't be reduced person? That an animal companion that has had its size bump can't be enlarged? Both are things that are "changing" the size.
Once again, natural aging is not an effect so those size changes would stack with size changing effects. Please stop using this argument, it is pointless to this discussion.Nothing there says it replaces his base size or that it stacks with other size increasing effects, and it's listed as an EX ability, so there's no way it stacks with other...So are you saying that a child can't be reduced person? That an animal companion that has had its size bump can't be enlarged? Both are things that are "changing" the size.
These AREN'T natural aging. One is a template being applied, the young template. The question is the same if the giant template was applied. These templates cause you to go up or down in size. Are templates effects that change size and thus don't set your new base?
The other is an animal companion, it's not natural aging that is causing it to grow large it's cause by the owner leveling up and it's something the owner chooses to give the animal. If the owner doesn't give the animal companion the ability to grow large it doesn't. That seems like it's VERY much the same thing as the large evolution.
The argument about whether the large/huge evolution is a magical effect should probably be in a thread of its own, as I believe the op's question was answered early on, and either way this is interpreted won't change that answer.
Nothing there says it replaces his base size or that it stacks with other size increasing effects, and it's listed as an EX ability, so there's no way it stacks with other...So are you saying that a child can't be reduced person? That an animal companion that has had its size bump can't be enlarged? Both are things that are "changing" the size.
Templates aren't effects. In fact, they usually grant effects, meaning it's an apples to oranges comparison.
Even then, the templates change the base size of the creature to the new size, which means that for all purposes, the new size is the base size, meaning effects like Enlarge Person would still apply to them.
Sure is a lot of "this is an effect, this isn't" being bandied about without justification....
Note: This isn't a barb at any posters--it's an observation that the mechanics use words that aren't well-defined. Sometimes deliberately--table variation is a feature of the game. But we end up with threads like this as a result.
The argument about whether the large/huge evolution is a magical effect should probably be in a thread of its own, as I believe the op's question was answered early on, and either way this is interpreted won't change that answer.
Agreed, and my apologies for aiding in the digression.
What about having Eidolon with Large evolution and Enlarge Person?
What if this evolution is from Evolution Surge spell, does it change anything?
Eidolons are not "Humanoid" and would gain no benefit from Enlarge Person - regardless of your opinion about mutations being effects or not.