Building a non-sneack rogue


Advice

Sovereign Court

The truth is that I never use rogue because the sneack seems too situational, and at high levels it does nothing but fall down. But I want to try to build a build that is relevant to 10+ levels and does not depend on the sneack. The only requirement is that you must keep trapfinding and not multiclass.
Until now I thought about doing some build around intimidating (thug seems sweet peropier trapfinding)
Another option was to do a build around reach, combat reflexes, cleave and with Surprise Follow-Through, the problem is that it just qualifies at level 5, since at level 1 it does not have 1 bab for power atack, and it needs several feats. With Surprise follow-through you may use sneacks but if doesnt work isnt the end of the word. The rogue talents (once combat trick is used) may be used for minor and major magic to get enlarge person.
Any other option that comes to mind?


I have some questions for you:
Why do you want to stick with rogue?
Is there a reason for it?
What is your focus of the character and why do you feel rogue is the best choice of class for that character?

I'm not saying that it's wrong, but what you've listed doesn't sound like a "rogue" in the pathfinder sense.

Sovereign Court

Gm wants a rogue in the party for trapfinding, and no other archetypes (alchemist/ranger that i know, may be others) that give trapfinding are allowed.


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Let me first start out with what I think are viable alternatives to rogue for you:
You can play a Slayer, which is a Ranger/Rogue class. It has full base attack bonus, and gives Slayer Talents every even level. One slayer talent is Trapfinding. You would get it at 2nd level instead of first.
Differences I think you'll care about:
BaB: Rogue: medium, Slayer: Full (every level)
Sneak Attack: Rogue: every odd level (starting at 1), Slayer: Every 3rd level (starting at 3)
Skill points: Rogue: 8, Slayer 6
Talents: Slayer can take some rogue talents, but not all, has a few other options as well.
There are a lot of other difference as well, but I would suggest checking out Slayer as it sounds like what you are REALLY looking for and only slows trapfinding down by 1 level and will allow you to take the feats you want to take.

If you are really set on getting trapfinding at level 1, there is always the Investigator class as well. It is an alchemist/rogue hybrid, but it is medium BaB and will slow down your feat choices.

Bard has a few archtypes that grants trapfinding: Archivist and Detective come to mind...but again, those are medium BaB.

Finally, there is the Seeker archtype for SORCERER. Yes, sorcerer. It gives you trapfinding at level 1 in place of eschew materials. Very out of the box, but doable and if you like messing with your GM, it could be fun.

Now, if you are set on playing a rogue (or shoehorned into it), you need to decide if you are playing an unchained rogue or regular rogue as that will limit what you can do for archtypes. But in either case, there isn't much you can do about BaB and other abilities. You're sort of stuck in rogue.
I will say, I think unchained rogue is vastly superior, but "technically" many of the archtypes for rogue aren't legal for unchained rogue.
I would suggest looking at the links I provided for unchained and normal rogue, scroll to the bottom, and check out the archtypes you may want. There is no way to give a good suggestion without knowing what you would enjoy.
Overall? I'd suggest just playing a slayer. It's what you want to play and only delays trapfinding by one level.


Seeker is also for Oracles, as one of the few archetypes applying to more than one class. For what that's worth.

Also, there are a few rogue archetypes who get rid of sneak attacks, at least partially. Maybe one of them could inspire you.
Keep also in mind that all that is unique about trapfinding is giving you a way to disarm magic traps specifically, everything else can be handled by anyone with the relevant skills - and half of that is Perception so ...

If you just don't like the conditions sneak attacks require, there are ways to make it easier for yourself to get easier sneak attacks, or add new ways to get them, from being a feinting machine (which can benefit the rest of your group if you invest enough) to just - again - archetypes, such as good old Scout, allowing you to sneak on a charge or even just a movement (like say a spring attack). Could help.

Otherwise, Slayer or Investigator get or can get trapfinding baseline, no archetypes, as mentioned above.
That could work with your GM ? Maybe ?
There's a Hunter archetype too, but I guess that's a no.

And if your GM just specifically wants a Rogue in his group period, well, there's not much else to do. Do ask why, though.

Sovereign Court

Ok thank you both! i think ill keep with other class like slayer or investigator.


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Read title, heard "non-snek rogue" in my head, thought "snek rogue is best rogue heck y u no play snek rogue i bite you with my poison".


Nyerkh makes an excellent point about the trapfinding ability...and is the reason I'd like to mention the inquisitor as my top choice for this kind of character.

The inquisitor solves a lot of the issues that you're worried about with the rogue chassis. Instead of trying to abuse situational sneak attacks (generally made more situational by a reliance on full attacks), the inquisitor can rely on Bane and Judgments to be a threat in nearly any combat situation. Spellcasting is, well, spellcasting and means the inquisitor can outperform the rogue in every "roguish" pursuit.

It sounds like your dm has some strict ideas about party formation but if you can convince them that the inquisitor can more than keep up in the trapfinding department then I think you will be quite happy. This is my favorite class for that Van Helsing, monster-slaying goodness.

Slayer is another strong option, although I do think the inquisitor is mostly just a better slayer too.

The one thing I like about slayers over any other class is their two-weapon fighting builds. If you are interested in making sneak attack as reliable as possible, a slayer can get both improved two-weapon fighting and circling mongoose at level 6 with the human favored class bonus. This allows you to set up your own sneak attacks, no flanking buddy or stealth needed. If you're interested I could post my build for that. It's a nice way to abuse sneak attack damage while not being completely reliant upon it.


I think you ought to try to convince your GM to relent on their whole:
Rogues-only-trap-detection-agency! that they've got going on.

Ask them why you can't substitute for something else (that doesn't suck) that also gets Trapfinding.


If you don't want to play rogue, you shouldn't. Life is too short to force yourself into roles you dislike.

Both hybrid classes based on rogue (slayer and investigator) are alternatives, as shalandar already pointed out. Mummy's Mask has a powerful campaign trait that gives you the option to disarm magical traps, Disable Device as a class skill and a +1 bonus on top - but it's up to the GM whether they allow it. The trait basically means you can take any class that can afford enough ranks in Perception and Disable Device.

For completeness: There is at least one rogue archetype that completely trades away sneak attack, the phantom thief. In return you become better at skills, and you can spend rogue talents on more combat feats, low-level magic and finally even more skill capability. Personally I struggle how to make such a PC contribute in combat, but great out-of-combat performance might be good enough for the table.


Targutai Minyatur wrote:

The truth is that I never use rogue because the sneack seems too situational, and at high levels it does nothing but fall down. But I want to try to build a build that is relevant to 10+ levels and does not depend on the sneack. The only requirement is that you must keep trapfinding and not multiclass. Until now I thought about doing some build around intimidating (thug seems sweet peropier trapfinding)

Another option was to do a build around reach, combat reflexes, cleave and with Surprise Follow-Through, the problem is that it just qualifies at level 5, since at level 1 it does not have 1 bab for power atack, and it needs several feats. With Surprise follow-through you may use sneacks but if doesnt work isnt the end of the word. The rogue talents (once combat trick is used) may be used for minor and major magic to get enlarge person.
Any other option that comes to mind?

Change your mind about that boldfaced part.

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