So, here is a bit of a tricky situation.
Two players have told me they like the Spell Warrior Skald and intend to play one in an upcoming game.
So, my question is, can someone accept the Weapon Song, Enhance Weapon song from multiple sources? Assume, in this case, that the partner's weapon is already magical (to make it easy).
Skald 1 starts singing and chooses to enhance weapons with flaming.
Skald 2 starts singing and chooses to enhance weapons with shock.
If they were trying to enhance the weapons with an enhancement bonus, it specifically states that the bonuses don't stack. But that isn't what they are doing in this case.
Thanks for the help
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Great question, but you've stumbled across the Forum for Pathfinder Society Organized Play. I think you meant to post this in the Rules Questions Forum (or maybe the regular General Discussion Forum?), so I'll go ahead and flag your post to be moved to a better location so it can garner the attention and answers/discussion it deserves ^_^
Great question, but you've stumbled across the Forum for Pathfinder Society Organized Play. I think you meant to post this in the Rules Questions Forum (or maybe the regular General Discussion Forum?), so I'll go ahead and flag your post to be moved to a better location so it can garner the attention and answers/discussion it deserves ^_^
Thank you, however, the game they intend to play in is PFS...so I assumed putting it here would be appropriate. Either way, assuming I get an answer, I don't care :)
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Totally. It's a fairly common mistake.
The Paizo Forums have different posters and different communities of people with different specialties. The Rules Questions Forum is the best place to ask rules questions (like this), because you're going to get the visibility and the experience over there that you probably won't get over here.
Same thing for any Forum.
This Forum is for discussions and questions about the PFS Campaign. Chronicle Sheets, XP, scenarios, GMing, in-world characters, legal items, Additional Resources and those sorts of conversations that wouldn't really fit anywhere else.
EDIT: and we're already there ^_^
My inclination is that it would not work. It would be two of the same effect. There are other things in the rules to try and prevent people from double dipping Rage effects and the two would both be using Weapon Song. Choose which song you take.
Still, I do not think it is clearly spelled out in the rules. It is also unclear if you could take a Raging Song and a Weapon Song.
An FAQ for the Advanced Class Guide says no.
Anger management: If I am in a rage, or an Unchained rage, or a bloodrage, or some similar form of rage, can I stack up as many benefits as possible?
No. When you either activate or are affected by a new form of rage (such as a barbarian’s rage, a skald’s raging song, a bloodrager’s bloodrage, and the rage spell), you can choose whether to keep your current rage or to accept the new rage instead, much like a creature affected by multiple polymorph effects. If you are in the throes of a rage that you could not automatically end on your own, such as a wild rager’s wild rage, you may not choose to replace it with a new rage effect. The exception to this rule is the skald’s master skald ability, which explicitly allows the skald’s raging song to stack with other rage effects.
Sadly, I found this FAQ to be unworkable. My Iron Gods campaign has a skald, a spell warrior skald, and a bloodrager. Trying to remember which effect comes from each version of rage is a lot harder than accepting them all and remembering the combined effects. And combining rage is more fun, so I houseruled that the characters can accept multiple rage songs.
Under my houserule, the +X enhancement bonuses from two Weapon Songs would not stack and duplicated continuous rage powers would not stack, but distinct weapon traits given to the same weapons, such as Keen and Flaming, would stack and distinct rage powers could be used. Duplicate rage powers useable once per rage would be once per rage per singer.
The FAQ doesn’t seem to apply in this case, because the effect targets the weapons and not the weilders. Or maybe it half applies for the purpose of not getting two sources of rage powers, since that effect does actually target the wielder, but is sourced from the weapon.
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That rule doesn't apply to the spell warrior's weapon song best I can tell. Only Inspire Rage or any other actual rage would not stack.
The overall class ability may be called raging song, but not each one actually causes rage, only Inspire Rage.
The wielder of a weapon enhanced by this raging song counts as if she were under the effect of an inspired rage raging song for all purposes involving the skald's rage powers.
It may not cause Rage, but it counts as if she were under the effect of an inspired rage raging song. The FAQ specifically calls out ‘a skald’s raging song’, so I think the FAQ would apply. I think the FAQ also prevents one from taking both Raging Song and Weapon Song.
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Wouldn't this mean that a barbarian or bloodrager couldn't benefit from any of the skald's raging songs while raging themselves without giving up their bonuses?
So they couldn't even accept something like Song of Marching?
Additionally, wouldn't this also make the skald's Dirge of Doom useless against anything with rage? Since they could choose to just stay under their current rage if all the skald's raging songs count as a rage by that reading of the FAQ.
If this FAQ applies to all Raging Songs like people seems to be saying I'm starting to see some issues.
It only says it counts as an inspired song for purposes involving rage powers. Not for the weapon bonuses themselves.
yeah they don't stack. You can only be under one
It only says it counts as an inspired song for purposes involving rage powers. Not for the weapon bonuses themselves.
This is the part that I'm interpreting to say "You could use multiple weapon songs so long as they don't pick the same ability." It only counts as Inspired Song for the purposes of rage powers.
So yes, rage powers from two Spell Warrior Skalds wouldn't necessarily stack, but the weapon bonuses themselves would.
Still hoping for some more clarification however :)
Weapon song is a really strange thing, because one song can effect multiple weapons, wielded by a single character. So, you can already benefit from that song multiple times.
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It only says it counts as an inspired song for purposes involving rage powers. Not for the weapon bonuses themselves.This is the part that I'm interpreting to say "You could use multiple weapon songs so long as they don't pick the same ability." It only counts as Inspired Song for the purposes of rage powers.
So yes, rage powers from two Spell Warrior Skalds wouldn't necessarily stack, but the weapon bonuses themselves would.
Still hoping for some more clarification however :)
The Weapon Song counts as a raging song.
Weapon Song (Su): A spell warrior gains the following raging song, allowing him to grant enhancement bonuses and special powers to his ally's weapons.
Therefore, Weapon Song follows the Skald rules for raging song.
When the skald begins a raging song and then on each ally's turn, if the ally can hear the raging song, that ally must decide whether to accept or refuse its effects. ...
By the FAQ, when an ally accepts one raging song, he or she automatically rejects all other raging songs. Thus, only one Weapon Song will affect each ally.
Wouldn't this mean that a barbarian or bloodrager couldn't benefit from any of the skald's raging songs while raging themselves without giving up their bonuses?
So they couldn't even accept something like Song of Marching?
Additionally, wouldn't this also make the skald's Dirge of Doom useless against anything with rage? Since they could choose to just stay under their current rage if all the skald's raging songs count as a rage by that reading of the FAQ.
If this FAQ applies to all Raging Songs like people seems to be saying I'm starting to see some issues.
The Raging Song ability has a clause that the barbarian gets to use his or her own rage modifiers when under the raging song, but not his or her own rage powers. Otherwise, yes, the barbarian has to give up his or her own rage to accept the skald's raging song. This means that a skald leading a warband of barbarians is a bad arrangement, even though it appears thematic.
As for Song of Marching, it lasts for hours, so a barbarian won't be raging during the march anyway.
As for Dirge of Doom, it affects enemies rather than allies. The quoted line about about allies accepting raging song does not apply to enemies, but the FAQ does. If a barbarian is already raging, he or she can reject the Dirge of Doom. If a barbarian is already subject to Dirge of Doom, he or she cannot start raging. It becomes a rocket-tag situation.
As for issues, yes, that is why I houseruled differently than the FAQ in my campaign.
The weapon song is a raging song, but it doesn't target a person. It targets weapons. The FAQ doesn't apply. You seemingly can't even choose to accept or reject a weapon song. Your weapons just get magical.
The weapon song is a raging song, but it doesn't target a person. It targets weapons. The FAQ doesn't apply. You seemingly can't even choose to accept or reject a weapon song. Your weapons just get magical.
The Spell Warrior archetype took an ability, Raging Song, designed to affect people and altered it to affect weapons, without changing all the details (probably due to lack of space). The original version even overlooked rage powers before the errata added them. This forces us to finish adjusting the rules ourselves and will create table variance.
If you wish to declare that Weapon Song affects weapons and then the weapons give the rage powers to their wielders, then that could be the GM's interpretation at your table. Weapons don't rage, not even furious weapon nor intelligent weapons, so ignore the rage rules and their annoying FAQ.
But if the rage rules don't apply, what rules do apply? What about the Raging Song rule, "Affected allies must be able to hear the skald for the song to have any effect."? Can weapons hear? Maybe that is why Weapon Song weapon enhancement says, "within 60 feet," because that could replace the hearing requirement. If a character wields two enhanced weapons that both give him Surprise Accuracy, a once-per-rage rage power, can he use Surprise Accuracy twice? If a monk is fighting with Unarmed Strike, but has 50 Weapon-Song enhanced shuriken in a belt pouch, does the monk get the rage powers? Little questions like that require a fresh interpretation for the Weapon Song ability. Soon the table interpetation evolves into a full-fledged houserule.
This is the rules forum. We are supposed to avoid saying, "Ignore that rule."
If a character wields two enhanced weapons that both give him Surprise Accuracy, a once-per-rage rage power, can he use Surprise Accuracy twice? If a monk is fighting with Unarmed Strike, but has 50 Weapon-Song enhanced shuriken in a belt pouch, does the monk get the rage powers? Little questions like that require a fresh interpretation for the Weapon Song ability. Soon the table interpetation evolves into a full-fledged houserule.
We already mentioned how that one is covered. For purposes of rage powers it counts as inspired rage, which doesn't stack with other rages.
So the weapon bonuses can "stack", following the usual rules for stacking bonuses, but only one set of rage powers would apply. There's no rule as to which to apply, but historically the first set of rage powers to activate would be considered active and the second set of rage powers would be inactive until the first set expires.
This is the rules forum. We are supposed to avoid saying, "Ignore that rule.
We can say to ignore rules that don't apply to this situation. The weapons can't take 5-foot steps either. They aren't dragons. They aren't an environment.