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Envoy or Operative?

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My GM has allowed me to play a Fetchling (+2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Will) with cold or electric resistance 5 (which resistance should I pick- I'm leaning towards electric), no Shadow Blending, Disguise Self as its only spell-like ability, and the option to pick alternate racial traits where they apply (I picked Shadow Agent for the +2 racial bonus to Bluff and Diplomacy).

My party consists of a Solarian, Technomancer, and Mystic. The Solarian relies more on Intimidation than talking it out from what I've heard. We're at Level 6 currently. Here are my builds so far:

Operative:
Reyff, Fetchling Ghost Operative Xenoseeker 6, 11 STR| 18 DEX| 12 CON| 12 INT| 10 WIS| 20 CHA
Skill Synergy- Diplomacy & Mysticism
Uncanny Mobility
Weapon Focus
Alien Archive
Versatile Focus
Bleeding Shot

Envoy:
Spek'taa, Fetchling Envoy Xenoseeker 6, 11 STR| 18 DEX| 12 CON| 12 INT| 10 WIS| 20 CHA
Longarm Proficiency
Inspiring Boost (Really necessary? We have a Mystic...)
Diplomacy Skill Expertise
Get 'Em
Versatile Specialization
Slick Customer
Clever Feint
Weapon Focus (Longarms)
Bluff Skill Expertise
Clever Attack

I know that the Envoy will pull far ahead at later levels with his Expertise Skill list, but he won't be as good at the remainder of skills like the Operative. The Operative will be really ace at identifying monsters and backing up or aiding the skills of the other party members better than the Envoy.

In combat the Envoy is much more supportive (I was going to pick Improved Get 'Em and Hurry later on), with less damage overall. The Operative is going to be more proactive, being a switch hitter (to back up the Solarian and get that nice flanking bonus), have higher mobility, defensive options, a better initiative, and more damage on average. I was also planning on picking up Coordinated Shot next level to give a pseudo Get 'Em to my ranged buds.

I'm leaning more towards Operative (they're the best all around class imo and I play one in another campaign so it's kinda biased haha). But I know the Envoy will flat out be better at the social skills and anything else on the Expertise List. Thoughts?

Just a couple questions, Has your group ever played before? If you guys haven't why start at lvl6?

Yeah my group's played before. I'm joining in their campaign (they lost a couple of players), where they're currently at Level 6.

EDIT: I totally forgot to mention that there's also a switch hitting Soldier in the group, which is another reason why I'm leaning towards Operative.

They’re playing the soldier gay? How is that relevant to your class choice?

...appreciate the feedback. I mean 'switch hitting between melee and range.'

I’d go envoy personally with clever attack and quick inspiring boost, being able to regenerate you party’s stamina as a move action is beastly since there’s almost no other ways to do it in combat yet, and making enemies flat footed increases your party’s dmg output much more than an operative can hope to do
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

With a Soldier and Solarian to boost and heal, my feel is that Envoy would be the best fit, synergy-wise.

But it sounds like you like the Operative more, and your first priority should be playing what you’d most enjoy...

Quick Inspiring Boost is all right, but doesn't heal as much. I guess it's decent if a couple people got hit in an area attack. I'm not so hung up on healing Stamina when you can only heal a person once per combat, there's a Mystic in the party, and people should have Resolve. Also Clever Attack and Get 'Em is the 'dope af' combo you're lookin for.

Operatives can make enemies flat footed with Debilitating Trick (and with the boosted initiative from Operative's Edge, that will probably set up everyone else).

Yeah, I can see where you're coming from Porridge, thanks. In my original post I forgot about the Soldier, so it makes total sense to hang in the back and just support the heavy hitters. However I really do enjoy playing an Operative and contributing offensively as well, but I'd like to hear more people's opinions.

I play an envoy 3 atm. I didn't realize how little they can do on their own in combat, so it has taken some adjustment. The more combat oriented improvisations that require actions you take, the less you can actually do. You can spend more time boosting or applying modifiers than attacking or moving, and it can be stifling, repetitive, and a bit boring. I'm considering multi-classing as soldier for those proficiencies and retooling my improvisations. We didn't really know the game when I started this character.

On the flip side, outside of combat, you basically run the show. You have a ton of skills, and if you enjoy role-playing, you can't go wrong with envoy. It's a lot of fun.

From what I've seen, operatives can stand on their own very well in both worlds.

Multiclassing Envoy and Soldier isn't a bad idea if you want to be more combat focused, but in my case I don't like putting the Envoy's class features on the back pedal when I have a Soldier and Solarian in the party.

Honestly I see my Envoy go Get 'Em -> Clever Attack every round, but it's not so much different from an Operative Trick Attacking every round.

...yeah you pretty much reaffirmed what I said in my first post Everae but I appreciate the reply.
juantamad wrote:

Quick Inspiring Boost is all right, but doesn't heal as much. I guess it's decent if a couple people got hit in an area attack. I'm not so hung up on healing Stamina when you can only heal a person once per combat, there's a Mystic in the party, and people should have Resolve. Also Clever Attack and Get 'Em is the 'dope af' combo you're lookin for.

Operatives can make enemies flat footed with Debilitating Trick (and with the boosted initiative from Operative's Edge, that will probably set up everyone else).

Yeah, I can see where you're coming from Porridge, thanks. In my original post I forgot about the Soldier, so it makes total sense to hang in the back and just support the heavy hitters. However I really do enjoy playing an Operative and contributing offensively as well, but I'd like to hear more people's opinions.

One thing to note about the heal stamina. When looked at it as you can heal somebody only once per fight it seems kind of weak. But in reality you heal everybody in your party once per combat so if you are doing 3-4 combats in a "day" that is a pretty huge amount of damage mitigated. Saves peoples resolve usage which in turn means more resolve to use to boost offense or to mitigate against KO's.

Truuuuuuuuuuu very fair point. I still don't see Quick Inspiring Boost as much of a priority though. Thanks for the reply, keeping Inspiring Boost seems worth it.

Quick is huge so you can clever attack in the same turn
ghostunderasheet wrote:

Well what ever you play i hope you do enjoy it. Everything i was guna say got said. And depending on whether or not you are playing multi-classin can be quite helpful. Just compare what you will get with what you will get with the next level or how many feats you may be saved from having to take to make it to later levels. At which time you can afford the expensive mind-wipe to remove that level or two.

Quick isn't a huge priority imo, I'd possibly take it after Improved Hurry.

Also I'm not sure how the memory wipe device would help in my instance... care to elaborate?

Heres the link http://www.starfindersrd.com/equipment/magic-items/#Mnemonic_Editor lets you change some stuff about your character.

Mnemonic Editor

A mnemonic editor consists of a complex series of brain implant injectors, digital harrow deck autoreaders, illusion runes, and virtual-reality programs, all controlled by an enchanted analysis computer and attached to a mobile surgical bed. The network of magic and technology is capable of removing experiences from a patient strapped to the bed over the course of a single 24-hour session. Skills and knowledge can be excised, lessons unlearned and muscle memory altered. Memories are not lost entirely; the patient still recalls what it did during its life, whom it met, and how it felt about the moments it experienced, but the impact of those experiences is subtly altered. The device then creates a new set of experiences—clearly Artificial but no less effective—by leaving impressions and implanting new knacks, muscle memory, reflexes, and skills.

Reworking Your Character A GM has the final decision on whether or not you may rework your character, changing decisions you previously made, and whether you are required to use a mnemonic editor to do so. A GM can decide that mnemonic editors are not available and cannot be crafted, created, or accessed through any means. A GM might also let a player to change a feat or class level if the player and GM agree it makes sense to do so, without resorting to such a device. The mnemonic editor provides an in-world explanation for mechanical changes made to a character. For example, it gives a character who started as an envoy but decided to study the ways of mysticism (and was seen casting Spells) a plausible way to suddenly lose that Spellcasting ability if the player decides that multicasting as an envoy/mystic isn’t as fun as expected.

If you use a mnemonic editor, you can undo 2 character levels’ worth of decisions about which class levels you took, which feats you selected, how you applied any level-based increases to ability scores, how you assigned new skill ranks, and so on. All decisions you made as a result of advancing over the previous 2 character levels you gained are undone. You then make new selections, including new class levels, feats, skills, and the like, as if you had regained the 2 missing character levels. Go through the normal process of advancing your character through each of these 2 levels.

Each mnemonic editor works only once—the strain on its technology and the consequences of rewriting your past to even this small degree cause it to break down into valueless junk after a single session. Additionally, the alterations made to you render it more difficult for such Extraordinary procedures to be effective in the future. A mk 1 mnemonic editor cannot be used on you if you have already benefited from one in the past. However, it is possible to use a more advanced mk 2 Model that functions in the same manner, even if you have already used a mk 1 mnemonic editor. of course, you can only benefit from a mk 2 mnemonic editor once. There exist even more advanced mk 3 and mk 4 Models, and each can be used on you once even after you have used a lower-level mnemonic editor, but they are so expensive that they are usually produced only upon request.

Thanks for the item description... but what I meant was how the mnemonic editor would benefit my character builds in this instance. Like why would I need to use this for my builds...?

Later in life you might want to go for the capstone ability at level twenty. It would let you rewrite the history of your youth.

That's cool and all but... I've never reached lvl 20 in any game. Hell, I don't think I've ever made it past 10.

So is everyone pushing me towards Envoy? Also is Cold or Electric resistance preferred?
Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

One drawback of the mnemonic editor is that it only lets you redo the two most recent levels of character decisions -- so many really old decisions would be set in stone if you wait too long to change them.

Yop @ David.

For reference in skills between the Envoy and Operative.

Acrobatics- E:8 | O:16
Athletics- E:9 | O:11
Bluff- E:17+1d6 | O:18
Computers- E:6 | O:7
Culture- E:10 | O:12
Diplomacy- E:17+1d6 (+reroll) | O:18
Disguise- E:5 | O:7
Engineering- E:10 | O:10 (12 Alien Archive)
Intimidate- E:5 | O:7
Life Science- E:10 | O:11 (13 Alien Archive)
Mysticism- E:0 (N/A) | O:11 (13 Alien Archive)
Perception- E:9 | O:11
Pilot- E:8 | O:10
Sense Motive- E:10+1d6 | O:11
Stealth- E:9 | O:16
Survival- E:0 | O:6

Max ranks in Bluff, Diplomacy, Perception, and Sense Motive for obvious reasons. Engineering and Life Science are maxed for the Envoy and those +Mysticism are near max on the Operative but I plan to max for the Alien Archive bonus. I have max ranks in Athletics because I’ve found that at some point in the campaign, the GM likes to put us in some sort of situation to use it. Max ranks in Culture to take advantage of the Xenoseeker 6th Level ability, Quick Pidgin (which did occur to me in my other campaign and I wish one of us had it!).

Acrobatics and Stealth are maxed for the Operative because of the Ghost Specialization, but I do have a rank or two in those for Envoy. Computers, Intimidate, Pilot, and Survival have little to no ranks because my other party members can handle those better. No ranks in Disguise because the party is a group of colonists and disguising ourselves offers little. No ranks in Profession because… murderhobo. Medicine, Physical Science, and Sleight of Hand are not applicable because I don’t have ranks in them so I can’t use them untrained.

The mnemonic editor is very useful for multiclasses to help mitigate not getting specialization at level 3. For instance, if you were to be a level 2 envoy and a level 1 soldier, because you want unwieldy heavy weapons and don't want to spend 3 feats to get it, at level 3 you take heavy weapon specialization. Then at level 5 when you qualify for versatile specialization because you've hit envoy level 3 you take that and "edit" your level 3 feat to something useful since you no longer need heavy weapon specialization.

BTW I would suggest considering a single level dip in soldier if you go envoy. The armor and porficiencies, plus a level 1 fighting ability all for delaying your envoy stuff only by 1 level is a pretty good trade. Also it's just fun to be the guy with the great intimidate skill plus a Plasma launcher or other big gun.

Operative would be better for a jack of all trades skill set and provide good damage.

Envoy would be better at filling specific roles (looks like party face and captain role would be a good fit for your party) and with providing combat buffs and unique advantages to the party.
Wayfinders

I plan to end up as Envoy 9 Operative 2. Mostly because I wanted an Envoy Ace Pilot and there's not really any synergy there. But 2 levels of Operative gives me Uncanny Pilot, Sniper Weapons, and Evasion.

If you're going with Culture as your envoy expertise and Detective as your Operative Specialization, there's some synergy, though the interaction of them both being Insight bonuses is a bit awkward.

Just an fyi, but clever pilot only applies to vehicles, as all of the wording is tied to that rather than starship combat, at least if I understand that correctly. Once I realized that clever pilot didn't look very good as there are few vehicles in the adventures I've been in so far, and no chases.

Since the species is connected so deeply to the shadows, I would lean toward a sneaky Operative build.
Wayfinders
baggageboy wrote:
Just an fyi, but clever pilot only applies to vehicles, as all of the wording is tied to that rather than starship combat, at least if I understand that correctly. Once I realized that clever pilot didn't look very good as there are few vehicles in the adventures I've been in so far, and no chases.

Yup. I'm more of a wind-in-your-hair terrestrial flight gal.

And the solution to a lack of vehicles is to buy your own. Sure, it's a bit pricy, but have you seen the damage if you deliberately ram someone with a Hover Pod? 10d10 damage! (sadly, a reflex 17 negates). And you can carry around 3 buddies.

Has anyone pointed out yet that the 20 Charisma is illegal at level 1? Earliest you can be CHA 20 is level 10, natively, or level 3 with equipment.
juantamad wrote:

Quick Inspiring Boost is all right, but doesn't heal as much. I guess it's decent if a couple people got hit in an area attack. I'm not so hung up on healing Stamina when you can only heal a person once per combat, there's a Mystic in the party, and people should have Resolve. Also Clever Attack and Get 'Em is the 'dope af' combo you're lookin for.

Operatives can make enemies flat footed with Debilitating Trick (and with the boosted initiative from Operative's Edge, that will probably set up everyone else).

Yeah, I can see where you're coming from Porridge, thanks. In my original post I forgot about the Soldier, so it makes total sense to hang in the back and just support the heavy hitters. However I really do enjoy playing an Operative and contributing offensively as well, but I'd like to hear more people's opinions.

The problem with Clever Attack is the DC scaling - envoys are much worse at Clever Attack than Operatives are at Trick Attack. How much worse depends on whether or not you took Convincing Liar, but here's your odds of successfully feinting a target as an Envoy with Convincing Liar but without knowing the target's CR, which slightly reduces your chances at several points, against a target whose CR is equal to your level, assuming you apply every bonus at your disposal to Bluff (meaning your CHA had better be higher than your DEX at every level):


  • 1, 97.500%
  • 2, 96.250%
  • 3, 97.500%
  • 4, 96.250%
  • 5, 96.500%
  • 6, 95.000%
  • 7, 96.500%
  • 8, 95.000%
  • 9, 95.500%
  • 10, 95.500%
  • 11, 95.500%
  • 12, 93.667%
  • 13, 93.625%
  • 14, 93.625%
  • 15, 93.625%
  • 16, 91.000%
  • 17, 92.500%
  • 18, 89.500%
  • 19, 89.500%
  • 20, 98.828%

I haven't really plumbed the depths of Envoy builds yet, but so far, I remain convinced their optimal builds revolve around an L1 dip into Soldier to shift their primary stat, and then dumping CHA, like so many Solarian builds. That means building around these Improvisations:

Improvisations:
Don't Quit
Get'Em
Look Alive
Watch Your Step
Duck Under
Focus
Hurry
Long-Range Improvisation
Watch Out
Clever Improvisations
Draw Fire
Heads Up
Improved Get'Em
Desperate Defense
Expert Attack
Improved Hurry
Situational Awareness
Sustained Determination

None of the talents are super duper compelling; obviously, if you're doing this, you'll focus on the int-based talents and skills more, and the two that seem to be the most forgiving of low int are Medicine and Culture.

Thanks for the advice guys.

@ quindraco, I started with 16 CHA at level 1, bumped it to 18 at level 5, then used a personal upgrade at 6. I was also planning on picking up Convincing Liar at 7th level to help with my Clever Attack/Bluff rolls. Charisma was always going to be the primary stat on both builds, because the party was lacking a true 'face.'

I really didn't want to dip Soldier at first, but your suggestions are making me consider.

...tbh I still like Operative more though haha
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