Investigator vs (Unchained) Underground Chemist Rogue

[Ikorus]

So I wanted to make a character that could do a little bit of everything baseline, and decide what to specialize in later. Backstabs, poisons and acids, explosives, healing, noncombat skill stuff like sneaking around to scout and spy, and ranged attacks as a backup or while closing in on the enemy, all without any magic (okay alchemy technically runs on magic, but its really more science. mad science.) like a really badass fantasy james bond almost.

as far as i can tell i'd need a dex/int build anyway, and would probably dump str/cha to allocate more of the stat budget to them and con (dead spies can't achieve anything meaningful).

for character flavor i was thinking of keeping a two-handed gun (or rather, crossbow, because fantasy) and a nice, big knife. and maybe a few spare concealed smaller knives for dual wielding/throwing as a backup if i'm disarmed. fighting dirty with pocket sand and kicks to vulnerable areas is completely encouraged.

so with all of that, which class is better suited to the job of Her Undying Majesty's Secret Service?

[Bladelock]

Cool concept. Investigator seems to be closer to what you're looking for. A large amount of versatility you described doesn't come online for an Underground Chemist until after lvl 10.

Also check out the Investigator archetypes:
- Toxin Codexer (Potions & Poisons companion) and
- Empiricist.

[Ikorus]

Seems like Empiricist trades away some of the convenience of poison-use that investigator comes with, but doesn't necessarily stop you from using them. I presume there are feats to potentially regain some of that lost utility?

Toxin Codexer goes in totally the opposite direction lol. These guys pick up special new poison "spells" and can upgrade their poisons. I'm not really well versed enough to know if they're actually any good or not though. Only shame is that you give up trapfinding for it. Well, and Keen Recollection, but iirc untrained checks have a bad success rate.

It's a shame they aren't compatible, I do like them both. Makes it hard to pick. I'm also kind of interested in the one that swaps out magic potions for gadgets instead (Scavenger?). It's functionally identical, but changes the flavor of the "spells" in a cool way. Unfortunately I don't think that's compatible either though since it does TECHNICALLY alter the abilities.

Cipher is also kind of cool, but it gives up too many talents for too little that's likely to be relevant. The big ticket there is the free studied strikes if you can get a "sneak attack" in. That's probably a big damage boost.

[ekibus]

For the most part poison is kind of a waste of time. Empiricist is actually really nice because it ditches the poison to switch a bunch of skills to int based.

I kinda went with a similar idea and took a level dip in inspired swashbuckler and then went empiricist. He dominates in skills..he uses his alchemy to tweak himself level 2 spells are all alchemical allocation. At level 6 he can hit at +14 and 1d6+13 with a parry and reposte. With a UMD of +18 he has started carrying around utility wands and using whatever is found to finish a adventure and he uses alchemical allocation to use a potion on demand.

[Ikorus]

I do want to use poison a bit to get an edge, but yeah I'd rather not specialize in it, and nothing stops me outright so yeah, let's cut Toxin Codexer out.

I notice that the Investigator (and Alchemist) "spells" are touch ranged if you take the Infusion Discovery to make them usable on other people. Is there any way to extend the range? Being able to "inject" Cure X Wounds from even just a few feet away would be great. Like anywhere from 5 to 30 is absolutely fine.

[ekibus]

I actually skipped infusion, you really dont get a lot of extracts and much more useful for yourself. What I did is I went with a half elf for the class bonus of +1 to inspiration every 4 levels (so right now when i roll I get to roll 1d6+1) then I took skill focus umd for the half elf... my idea is to get him to reliably use wands asap..at level 6 with heroism going I'm at +18 umd so even if I roll a 1 I can spend the inspiration to make sure it never fails. If you are doing a home game pick up a 12th level potion of barkskin...2 hour +5 natural armor buff is nothing to sneeze at. So he kept a quick draw bracer with a wand of shield...when he was fully buff and going he had Ac32. (forgot that pathfinder society I couldn't do that =/ ) For the most part if the party needs a heal, use the wand. A real caster will outshine you.

[Ikorus]

That's a fair point, but the question still stands. Regardless of whether it's practical or not, I'd still like to know if it's possible. Mainly just because I feel like having options for how to apply mechanics and to whom makes me more flexible, even if it's not exactly optimal. Flexibility is why I wanted to play an Investigator in the first place. The have a great basic skeleton as a jack of all trades that can with certain archetypes and/or multiclass dips be directed to something more specialized in any one given field, but still retaining minor proficiency in the other areas.

I do note that it only says "touch attack" - without specifying whether it's a melee touch or ranged touch, because there are both - and only in reference to when it's not wanted (such as inflicting a debuff on an enemy), and while I do think that by RAW that should give me some wiggle room [for applying Extracts to willing allies at range] other than a liberal application of DM Fiat (something I prefer to avoid whenever possible), I'm not actually 100% sure, and could VERY easily just be applying personal bias based on what I perceive as "cool" to the reading.

[Enchanter Tim]

I'm playing an underground chemist rogue now, and I'm really enjoying it, but I don't think it's what you want in this situation.

You could play it as a versatile character, but I think you get far more out of the archetype by playing it as a bomber. With enough investment in crafting alchemy splash weapons (acid, alchemist's fire, etc.), you can be throwing splash weapons almost every round. After 4th level, you get sneak attack with them. Combine it with the Scout archetype and you can charge-sneak attack. It really helps the rogue to be able to hit touch ACs. And you still have sneak attack melee as a backup.

But while fun, this isn't a versatile, do everything character. It's a niche style character making use of some interesting options to help the party.

[Syries]

Investigators are great. Empericist is a great archetype and as ekibis stated poison use isn't all that great. There are other ways to get that edge in combat. For investigators, buffing yourself is so much more effective than debuffing enemies.

As has already been suggested, a powerful dip with dex/int investigators is the inspired blade swashbuckler. Dex to damage at level 1 and Parry/Rippste. If you're worried about specific damage types you can pick up the weapon versatility feat.

As for the "touch" spells, there's no way to use them at ranged. If you have the infusion talent you can hand them out to others, but otherwise you are walking up to them and applying it at touch. In general, if it says range of touch it is melee touch. If the range is close or larger and the text says ranged touch, then it's ranged touch.

*edit, so there's no confusion: you NEED the infusion talent to affect targets other than yourself. Its just a matter of whether you walk up to them and stick the vial in their mouth to drink or you giving them the vial to use at a later time.