Adventurer's Armory 2 has given us this piece of mundane equipment that, for 35 gp, 4 lbs and a flask of oil, gives us a light source that is "imperceptible to creatures relying on darkvision as their sole form of sight."
So my sneak-types can finally creep up on the ghouls & orcs in their lair. Cool..... wait.... SOLE form of sight? Orcs & ghouls have darkvision, but they don't have ONLY darkvision. Nothing has ONLY darkvision, right?
Does anything meet the criteria of "relying on darkvision as their sole form of sight"? Surely I've missed something? Or is this item a waste of ink and word-count?
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uh49?How-does-the-Dusk-lantern-work
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uh49?How-does-the-Dusk-lantern-work
Thanks. I searched first, really I did.
It saddens me that the orc guard can still see the lantern wielder.
Um, thats not what I got out of that thread = ).
The mechanics are certainly wonky. But I think most GM's will allow what you want. Although again, working out the mechanics will be difficult.
Additionally, in an area of normal darkness, yes, the orcs darkvision will continue to work. In an area of deeper darkness, using a dusk lantern will let you see, and not the orc.
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I disagree with the other thread there, and will say if that if their intention was as the other thread's posters indicate they've done a very poor job of indicating it.
Darkvision isn't an either or thing. You're normal vision also works while using darkvision (nothing I've seen indicates otherwise). Yes, that means this item basically does nothing as of right now. What it really means is that the item needs a rewrite on how it functions to clarify its ability.
Hey Claxon, I don't agree, and I think the evidence is dispositive, and why I think this is a change from previous versions.
Nothing in pathfinder that I can find says orcs have any sight other than darksight. Not darksight as a complement to normal vision - only darksight.
As such the light from a dusk lantern is imperceptible.
Note that Deeper Darkness referecnes Darkness, whichNonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness.
Yes, I agree with that bit, which is why I think the mechanics are wonky.
I guess the point is that if you are travelling with a dusklantern you don't radiate light (at least to people with darksight).
Sort of like if you are wielding a torch at night, people can see you coming a long way before you'll be able to see them.
Nothing in pathfinder that I can find says orcs have any sight other than darksight. Not darksight as a complement to normal vision - only darksight.
Methinks orcs archers everywhere would beg to differ, else they would be blind, thus ineffective, beyond their darkvision range, even in broad daylight.
I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're trying to say PerfectTommy, but all creatures (unless otherwise stated) have normal vision. It's a built in assumption of the game.
Unless you think because the stat block for Orc NPCs that says "senses darkvision" means they only have darkvision. In which case all humans must be blind since in human NPC stat blocks they don't list any type of vision.
If your whole argument is "these creatures only have darkvision" that is probably not the road you want to go down.
Also, Orc's have light sensitivity. Which means their eyes have to able to perceive normal light, which implies they are also capable of normal vision.
I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're trying to say PerfectTommy, but all creatures (unless otherwise stated) have normal vision. It's a built in assumption of the game.
Unless you think because the stat block for Orc NPCs that says "senses darkvision" means they only have darkvision. In which case all humans must be blind since in human NPC stat blocks they don't list any type of vision.
If your whole argument is "these creatures only have darkvision" that is probably not the road you want to go down.
No, I'm making a slightly different argument.
I'm saying whatever kind of "normal" vision is subsumed in darkvision. However, that same vision is still bypassed by the abilities of the dusk lantern.
There's nothing that indicates regular vision doesn't work normally while also using darkvision.
Again, if that is the intention it should be clarified somewhere.
And if the regular vision of a creature that also possess dark vision is meant to be bypassed, it should again be made more clear.
As it is right now, the dusk lantern will basically do nothing against anyone. That certainly wasn't the intention I'm sure, but the way it's written makes it seem like the writer made assumptions that the game doesn't actually have.
As written it seems to do nothing. In our game we ruled that creatures with dark vision cannot see the light emitted by the dusk lantern. Of course if you're in range of their dark vision they can see you just fine but if, for example you were to sneak up on an orc camp the orc lookout would not be able to see the lantern light in the distance; the human prisoner would be able to see a dim red light approaching the camp but not much else.
Meh. Normal vision doesn't work in darkness. Creatures with darkvision in darkness then have darkvision as sole source of vision. Thus dusk lantern works. Someone with normal vision would see.
Sissyl that doesn't make sense, unless using darkvision somehow causes your normal vision not to work.
Normal (human) eyesight can see a single candle light at a distance of several miles.
So, the red light that is produced should be visible with normal vision at a long distance.
Which means that distance outside of darkvision range, their normal vision should function and allow them to see the light.
Unless for some reason using darkvision prevents your normal vision from working, but nothing in the rules supports that idea.
Drow/Duergar cities have some lighting of key areas precisely because of the range limitations of Darkvision. A Drow standing darkness 500’ from a well-lit marketplace sees that with regular vision, but also sees her immediate surroundings with DV. Nothing can be seen in the gap between unless it is also lit.