Casting Hellfire ray with a Holy Symbol

[Jotrick]

I´m arguing with one of my players about this subject.

Can a CN Cleric of Besmara cast Hellfire ray with his Holy Symbol as DF?

From my understanding he can´t because I interpret the spell as he needs an unholy symbol.

"V, S, F/DF (any unholy symbol or heretical tome)"

Thank you in advance to those who will enlighten me.

[Jeff Morse]

i would say depends on whether he channels positive or negative. that spell should have the lawful tag, so wouldnt be able to than.

[Jeraa]

Jotrick wrote:

I´m arguing with one of my players about this subject.

Can a CN Cleric of Besmara cast Hellfire ray with his Holy Symbol as DF?

From my understanding he can´t because I interpret the spell as he needs an unholy symbol.

"V, S, F/DF (any unholy symbol or heretical tome)"

Thank you in advance to those who will enlighten me.

Holy symbols and unholy symbols are not interchangeable.

Quote:

Holy Symbol, Silver or Wooden: A holy symbol focuses positive energy and is used by good clerics and paladins (or by neutral clerics who want to cast good spells or channel positive energy). Each religion has its own holy symbol.

Unholy Symbols: An unholy symbol is like a holy symbol except that it focuses negative energy and is used by evil clerics (or by neutral clerics who want to cast evil spells or channel negative energy).

You would require an unholy symbol, which requires an evil cleric (or a neutral one of a neutral deity). A neutral cleric of a neutral deity would actually need to carry one of each. One for his [Good] spells and one for his [Evil] spells.

[Kristal Moonhand]

Besmara is a CN deity of pirates, ja? I'd have a holy symbol that's two-sided. One side is a normal-looking symbol, the other is a skull and crossbones (for the evil stuff). When it's pirate time, you just flip it around. Might need to pay double the normal price, however. Since, you know, it's two-in-one.

[Kitty Catoblepas]

Doesn't that parse out to F (unholy symbol or heretical tome) or DF (cleric's (un)holy symbol)? Your god doesn't require you to use a different god's symbol, in other words.

[Snowblind]

Kitty Catoblepas wrote:

Doesn't that parse out to F (unholy symbol or heretical tome) or DF (cleric's (un)holy symbol)? Your god doesn't require you to use a different god's symbol, in other words.

Here, lets refer to the actual rules on this...

Hellfire Ray wrote:

V, S, F/DF (any unholy symbol or heretical tome)

Magic chapter wrote:

Components

A spell’s components explain what you must do or possess to cast the spell. The components entry in a spell description includes abbreviations that tell you what type of components it requires. Specifics for material and focus components are given at the end of the descriptive text. Usually you don’t need to worry about components, but when you can’t use a component for some reason or when a material or focus component is expensive, then the components are important.

...
Focus (F)

A focus component is a prop of some sort. Unlike a material component, a focus is not consumed when the spell is cast and can be reused. As with material components, the cost for a focus is negligible unless a price is given. Assume that focus components of negligible cost are in your spell component pouch.

Divine Focus (DF)

A divine focus component is an item of spiritual significance. The divine focus for a cleric or a paladin is a holy symbol appropriate to the character’s faith. The divine focus for a druid or a ranger is a sprig of holly, or some other sacred plant.

If the Components line includes F/DF or M/DF, the arcane version of the spell has a focus component or a material component (the abbreviation before the slash) and the divine version has a divine focus component (the abbreviation after the slash).

Note that as per the top of Components, the only items listed at the end are Focus and Material components, not a Divine Focus. This means that, as per the meaning of F/DF, arcane hellfire ray has a requirement of an unholy focus, and divine hellfire ray has a requirement of a Divine Focus (of the sort normally appropriate for that character).

[Jotrick]

Thanks for your responses guys, in the end I have told him that if he takes the "Versatile Channeler" feat he can have both holy and unholy symbols.

[The Sideromancer]

Jeff Morse wrote:

i would say depends on whether he channels positive or negative. that spell should have the lawful tag, so wouldnt be able to than.

Perhaps it should be [lawful], but AoN only shows the [evil] descriptor.

[Halek]

Couldnt he just buy a spell component pouch which has every focus less than gold in it? No need to burn a feat.

[Pizza Lord]

Halek wrote:

Couldnt he just buy a spell component pouch which has every focus less than gold in it? No need to burn a feat.

Holy symbols cost at least 1 gold (or at least, have a specific price).

[Jeraa]

Jotrick wrote:

Thanks for your responses guys, in the end I have told him that if he takes the "Versatile Channeler" feat he can have both holy and unholy symbols.

There is no need to burn a feat on anything. As long as he is a neutral cleric of a neutral god, he can easily have both a holy and unholy symbol. Nothing extra is required.

[graystone]

Pizza Lord wrote:

Halek wrote:

Couldnt he just buy a spell component pouch which has every focus less than gold in it? No need to burn a feat.

Holy symbols cost at least 1 gold (or at least, have a specific price).

heretical tome doesn't have a cost. The pouch is chock full of those...

[Jeraa]

graystone wrote:

Pizza Lord wrote:

Halek wrote:

Couldnt he just buy a spell component pouch which has every focus less than gold in it? No need to burn a feat.

Holy symbols cost at least 1 gold (or at least, have a specific price).

heretical tome doesn't have a cost. The pouch is chock full of those...

That is also a focus component, which only the arcane version of the spell has. A divine caster can't supply the focus component- they must supply the divine focus component, which in this case (as an evil cleric spell) is an unholy symbol. (The fact that a unholy symbol is also a possible focus component for arcane casters is just a coincidence.)

Quote:

If the Components line includes F/DF or M/DF, the arcane version of the spell has a focus component or a material component (the abbreviation before the slash) and the divine version has a divine focus component (the abbreviation after the slash).

[Kitty Catoblepas]

Jeraa wrote:

graystone wrote:

Pizza Lord wrote:

Halek wrote:

Couldnt he just buy a spell component pouch which has every focus less than gold in it? No need to burn a feat.

Holy symbols cost at least 1 gold (or at least, have a specific price).

heretical tome doesn't have a cost. The pouch is chock full of those...

That is also a focus component, which only the arcane version of the spell has. A divine caster can't supply the focus component- they must supply the divine focus component.

Quote:

If the Components line includes F/DF or M/DF, the arcane version of the spell has a focus component or a material component (the abbreviation before the slash) and the divine version has a divine focus component (the abbreviation after the slash).

Just to be explicit, the Arcane Focus is "a heretical tome or unholy symbol" and the Divine Focus is the Cleric's god's religious symbol.

That is to say, the cleric does not require specifically an "unholy" symbol, just a compatible dirty alignment and a symbol of that god.

Edit: Autocorrect turned diety into dirty. Ha.

[graystone]

Jeraa wrote:

graystone wrote:

Pizza Lord wrote:

Halek wrote:

Couldnt he just buy a spell component pouch which has every focus less than gold in it? No need to burn a feat.

Holy symbols cost at least 1 gold (or at least, have a specific price).

heretical tome doesn't have a cost. The pouch is chock full of those...

That is also a focus component, which only the arcane version of the spell has. A divine caster can't supply the focus component- they must supply the divine focus component.

Quote:

If the Components line includes F/DF or M/DF, the arcane version of the spell has a focus component or a material component (the abbreviation before the slash) and the divine version has a divine focus component (the abbreviation after the slash).

If that's the case, then the unholy symbol is ALSO only an arcane focus. Nothing indicates "(any unholy symbol or heretical tome)" is different for this spell than ANY other F/DF spell where only the arcane requirement is listed: they list the arcane part and the DF isn't mentioned as that varies depending on who's casting it.

So either the heretical tome is a divine focus and works for a divine spell or it's an arcane focus, along with the unholy symbol, and has no bearing on a divine spell: Nothing suggests that there is any difference in the focuses, separated only by an 'or'. Even if we go by order assigned, that'd made the F the unholy symbol and the heretical tome the DF one. :P

[Pizza Lord]

graystone wrote:

heretical tome doesn't have a cost. The pouch is chock full of those...

Don't assume that because there isn't a price listed in the spell description that it means an item doesn't have a significant cost (at least 1 gp.) I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a book under 1 gp. Even 5 sheets of parchment is 1 gp. The potion of bull's strength listed in the transformation spell doesn't a cost listed there either, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna let you pull them out as though your pouch is chock full of them.

Even beyond that, the item must fit in a pouch (which was described in a few spots as about the size for holding 3 apples, though I am not going looking through everywhere for it, since this isn't the main point of the thread). I don't envision a 'tome' as fitting in a spell component pouch. It's not a 'heretical pamphlet' or 'heretic's notepad'. :) <----- smiley face

[Jeraa]

Kitty Catoblepas wrote:

Just to be explicit, the Arcane Focus is "a heretical tome or unholy symbol" and the Divine Focus is the Cleric's god's religious symbol.

That is to say, the cleric does not require specifically an "unholy" symbol, just a compatible dirty alignment and a symbol of that god.

Edit: Autocorrect turned diety into dirty. Ha.

No, it must be an unholy symbol. The spell has the [Evil] tag, and holy symbols can not be used with such spells. Only unholy symbols.

Quote:

Holy Symbol, Silver or Wooden: A holy symbol focuses positive energy and is used by good clerics and paladins (or by neutral clerics who want to cast good spells or channel positive energy). Each religion has its own holy symbol.

Unholy Symbols: An unholy symbol is like a holy symbol except that it focuses negative energy and is used by evil clerics (or by neutral clerics who want to cast evil spells or channel negative energy).

So a holy symbol can not be used. It must therefore be an unholy symbol.

[Kitty Catoblepas]

Great. Now I'm going to have to take Profession(Heretical Blogger) on someone.

[graystone]

Pizza Lord wrote:

graystone wrote:

heretical tome doesn't have a cost. The pouch is chock full of those...

Don't assume that because there isn't a price listed in the spell description that it means an item doesn't have a significant cost (at least 1 gp.)

That's EXACTLY what it means though. No listed cost is no listed cost: heretical has no listed price... it's just that simple. And before you go 'but potion of bull's strength', that DOES have a cost listed someplace in the rules: heretical tome doesn't.

As to size: A tome can mean nothing more than "a book that was a part of a multi-volume work". That means a comic book falls under that definition. Also it's funny you bring up pamphlets and notepads, as THOSE are kinds of booklet, or small BOOKS. We are also talking about a world that HAS printing presses so they are very possible too.

"Due to their low cost and ease of production, pamphlets have often been used to popularize political or religious ideas." "A pamphlet is an unbound booklet (that is, without a hard cover or binding). It may consist of a single sheet of paper that is printed on both sides and folded in half, in thirds, or in fourths, called a leaflet, or it may consist of a few pages that are folded in half and saddle stapled at the crease to make a simple book."

Nothing more that a few, 5-48, unbound pages counts as a book.

[Reksew_Trebla]

I just wanted to point out that if he has something to draw on (including his own clothes, armor, or even skin), ink (or if it comes down to it, his own blood), a quill/pen (or his fingers), and enough ranks in profession (artist), he can just draw an unholy symbol and use that. I suck at drawing, but even I can draw a pentagram or upside down cross, for example.

[Kristal Moonhand]

I mean, does the player need to cast good spells? Have they looked at the Birthmark trait? Have they thought about being an Oracle, who never needs a symbol because they are a symbol?

[Pizza Lord]

graystone wrote:

Pizza Lord wrote:

graystone wrote:

heretical tome doesn't have a cost. The pouch is chock full of those...

Don't assume that because there isn't a price listed in the spell description that it means an item doesn't have a significant cost (at least 1 gp.)

That's EXACTLY what it means though. No listed cost is no listed cost: heretical has no listed price... it's just that simple. And before you go 'but potion of bull's strength', that DOES have a cost listed someplace in the rules: heretical tome doesn't.

What I believe I said, and you quoted, was not to assume that something has no price because the spell doesn't list it. In other words, the fact that it's unlisted in the spell description does not mean it has no price. The example of a potion of bull's strength was used because it was very clearly an example that any reader could see and realize was true. The fact that 'you' know it has a cost (presumably, I assume you just realized I was telling the truth and didn't actually go and look it up 'someplace in the rules').

I really assume your statement about spell component pouches being chock full of tomes was mostly just a humorous one (it's a very common hand-wave and suspension of disbelief for ease of bookkeeping) but I wanted to clarify that players shouldn't assume that because the spell description may just say 'rope' and not 'at least 1 gp worth of rope' that it means they can pull out as much as they want. Obviously you can be pedantic or loose with your reading of a spell component pouch. Technically, any component with a 'specific cost' is not allowed. That means a piece of chalk will not be found in it, because it has a specific cost. Interestingly enough, colored chalk does not have a listed cost (only described as 'more expensive'). You or I could read things however we want, but there's a reasonable and consistent way to run them, and that way isn't by stating normal chalk can't be found in the pouch but that it's chock full of any other colors and sizes (or even blocks, as long as they aren't 'pieces') in whatever design or hue the PC can imagine at any one time and simultaneously.

You can let players carry 4 million pieces of chalk if you want without any regard to its bulk or actual weight because the only listing for chalk says it's of negligible weight (You could just disregard encumbrance entirely, for that matter, but this is the Rules forum.)

You can claim an 'illuminated tome' is just a well-lit tome or it's an artistically-enhanced tome scribed with a certain style... but either way claiming that it has no cost because 'illuminated' is not a listed quality and thus a tome is essentially valueless/not specifically priced (for spell component pouch purposes) is just a bit iffy when we can look and see prices on books, journals, tomes, pieces of paper and parchment, etc. Reading too strictly on the 'no specific cost' part of the pouch would mean you could pull out anything that just doesn't have a 'specific' listed cost. For instance, 5 to 45 feet of rope doesn't have a 'specific' cost, so you can do that as long as you don't pull out exactly 50 feet (or multiples thereof) of rope.

I will assert again, sometimes a spell description does not list a price for an item (even one we know has a price, like the holy symbol), and that nothing should be assumed without a little checking or common sense. This is drifting from the main topic though. It's probably not too hard to find an unholy symbol or tome and just have it.

[Cevah]

My cleric carries multiple holy symbols in case one gets lost/broken/stolen.

The CN cleric can carry multiple ones as well, some holy and some unholy, to be used when casting aligned spells. Use the holy symbol for [good] spells, the unholy symbol for [evil] spells, and either for all other spells. As they are cheap, at a minimum 1 gp. Having spares should be normal.

/cevah