I've got an odd build I'm trying to do, but having trouble finding all the relevant components for it and wanted to turn to the wider community for help on it. Based on my specifications below, can you point me at anything that would be PFS legal and reasonably effective at the table? You're welcome to propose either full builds, or just tell me the materials to look at!
Specifications:
PFS Legal. 20 Point Buy.
Human
Align: NG, LG, or CG.
Deity: Any NG, LG, or CG.
Primary Stats: Dex and Cha.
Weapon: Any polearm with Reach; spears, glaives, horsechoppers, naginata, it's all good.
Armor: None or Light ideally, but willing to entertain other ideas if needed.
Class: Any, including multiclassing (I came across some possibilities for Cleric + Unchained Monk at one point, if this gives you an example of how unusual a build I'm willing to entertain)
Any help would be greatly appreciated!
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I don't know how legal this is but you could go Daring Champion cavalier and take the Bladed Brush and Slashing Grace feats and eventually the Devoted Muse prestige class. Far as I know though, weather or not those two feats work together is still hotly debated.
ohako: Spear dancer or using the Elven Branched Spear is fine. EDIT Actually I think I prefer the Branched Spear due to Reach, whereas most of the dancer feats lose Reach.
This should be an on-foot character, full BAB or close to it. A summoner isn't what I'm after in this case.
Sorry for the confusion there, I should've specified.
Magog: It's a starting point at least, but yeah, the Bladed Brush feat being banned in PFS is an issue. Thank you for the idea though!
3 levels in unchained rogue will give you dex to damage with a finessable weapon. That elven branched spear is finessable and as a two-handed weapon unchained rogue will give you 1.5*dex to damage with it. 4 levels adds debilitating injury and a second rogue talent, and either uncanny dodge or whatever an archetype might replace that with (e.g. scout gives you sneak attack on a charge in place of uncanny dodge).
If you want full BAB past that point then slayer fits thematically, or urban bloodrager gives you a bonus to dexterity and could make use of Cha later, or a paladin has obvious use for Cha then and there.
Bingo. I had no idea Unchained Rogue existed, let alone did Dex-to-Damage. That's what I need to make this work. I'll probably grab 3 levels of Unchained Rogue, then either Unchained Monk or Paladin the rest of the way. Unchained Monk would let me forego armor and adds some unarmed strikes to the mix.
This is a great idea, thanks for suggesting it, avr and Shorticus!
That's clearly a good combo, but doesn't quite fit the character aesthetic I want. Thanks though, Sammy T!
So, here's what I have.
Human, LG Align, Deity Arshea
Unchained Rogue 3 (no Archetype) / Unchained Monk 8 (Scaled Fist archetype)
Favored Class is Unchained Monk, +1 HP for favored class option on all 8 levels.
Str 10
Dex 18 (as 16 + 2 Human)
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 8
Cha 14
+1 to Dex at L4 and +1 to Dex at L8.
Skills omitted for brevity.
Traits: Tianjing Temple Guard (+1 to AOOs with Polearms) and Carefully Hidden (+1 Will, +2 vs. Divinations) Feel free to suggest alternate traits.
Feats: Start with Exotic Proficiency (Elven Branched Spear) as L1 base. Human bonus feat on Combat Reflexes. Rogue automatic feat on Weapon Finesse. That said, I welcome input on other feats to select for this build. Same deal with input on debilitating strikes (the Rogue Unchained class feature, which one should I be using?) and Rogue Talents. Monk powers are already spoken for.
Starting Equipment (within 150 GP limit and 33 pounds carrying limit): Elven Branched Spear + backup weapons, 1x CLW potion, clothes, 1x Acid vial, 1x Shortbow, 1x Sling, 1x Hanbo, 1x Cold Iron Dagger, 1x Pathfinder's Kit (will drop this at start of combat), and 1x Leather Cuirass as a temporary armor until Monk levels are gained.
Any input for refining this? I think the overall idea works, I just need a good Feat progression and ideas on the Rogue Talent to select.
My goal is basically to have this character hit stuff at Reach with their polearm. Plan B is Unarmed Strikes using Dragon Style and elemental abilities via the Scaled Fist archetype. Beyond that, social skills and other non-combat abilities are a secondary concern but will gladly be pursued if convenient to do so.
EDIT: Also, I am open to other ideas that facilitate the general 'no armor' concept. Other multiclass dips and so on are worth suggesting, the Unchained Rogue 3 and Unchained Monk 8 is just the overall idea.
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Dumping WIS to 8 and multiclassing 2 classes with bad Will saves is going to be rough.
I know it’s tough with needing so many stats, but I think it’s worth trying to get a 13 STR so you can take Power Attack. Or to find a way to get it as a bonus feat ignoring prereqs. Two-handed Power Attack and 1.5x Dex to Damage makes for a pretty heavy hitter. I’m running an Unchained Rogue with a dip in Snakebite Brawler through Emerald Spire. At 5th level, I’m at d8+16 before sneak attack, which is the hardest hitting finesse character I’ve ever played. Without power attack that drops to d8+10, which isn’t terrible, but monk doesn’t have any means of adding damage to the main attack.
Having Improved Unarmed Strike is definitely nice, since it lets you threaten adjacent. Having a small strength bonus helps that damage a little when you’re backed into a corner (which has happened a lot to me in the small dungeon rooms). 7th Level I’ll get Phalanx Formation, then I can just hide behind the Bloodrager and animal companion and attack over them with gang up.
If you’re willing to give up Uncanny Dodge (which it seems you are, since you’re stopping at URogue 3), Sanctified Rogue can help shore up your saves a little. But the danger in doing that can vary depending on the scenario. I made the calculation that I would run into many more saving throws in the dungeon than sneak attackers. So far I’ve been right. It does mean taking a 4th level of Rogue, which I’d suggest anyway. Level 4 is a +1 BAB Level, so you don’t lose anything there. You get Debilitating Injury and a Rogue Talent. And either Uncanny Dodge or Divine Purpose (+1 sacred bonus to fort and will). The Fort save might be a wash versus an extra level of UMonk, but the +1 Will should help.
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Also note that if you start as a Rogue at level 1, you can’t take Exotic Weapon Proficiency, since it requires BAB +1. However, you can take the Martial tradition alternate racial trait as a Human and swap your bonus feat for two Martial or Exotic Weapon Proficiencies. So pick up Longbow. Then just make your regular feat Combat Reflexes.
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Since you are going full dex and no armor, you might consider switching your dump stat to Str...you'll do 1 less damage until level 3, but your will saves are already going to be in the toilet, and dumping wis really hurts that even more. Not much sucks more than getting dominated and killing your own party.
I would also strongly consider going URogue 4 / UMonk 7. You won't lose any BAB, you'll gain uncanny dodge, a rogue talent and debilitating injury.
Debilitating injury is amazing. You can lower your targets AC, give them negatives to hit, or reduce their move speed (or a few other things via certain rogue talents)
You will end up with Evasion from both classes, so I would look into the rogue archetypes that give up evasion, see if any of them appeal to you.
One other possible option to consider would be URogue 4 / UMonk 5 / Paladin 2. You would still get most of the good stuff from the monk, along with greatly improved saving throws (+Cha to all your saves and a good base will save) some low level healing (along with the ability to use most divine wands without a UMD check), and you could declare smite on the BBEG in most scenarios.
Ferious, those are good ideas. A few things to answer and elaborate on!
On Will Saves: Not as bad as it looks, I'm going to get Steadfast Personality to cover for this at level 3. I should have said as much up front. It won't make the Will save good by any stretch, but it'll make it tolerable.
On Exotic Proficiency vs. Military Tradition: Good catch! Thank you for noticing the rules mistake I made. I've made the correction to my sheet, and am amused that in this case it's outright superior than the 'lost feat' would be in any case. That's silly, but I'll take it.
On Archetypes: I was unaware you could use archetypes on Unchained Rogue, but a quick search confirms you can. What you've suggested isn't a bad idea, but I don't feel like what I gain here is worth giving up the improvement to unarmed damage, AC, and speed. Likewise, losing out on a Ki Power (I was going to pick up Scorching Ray) hurts. It's a neat idea, though!
On Power Attack plus Weapon Finesse: Does that actually work? I looked around and it seemed like it doesn't. The 1.5x Dex to Damage part clearly DOES, I found the FAQ on that, but Power Attack? I couldn't see anything saying it works. Do you have a source on this?
For what it's worth, Dragon Style and the other aspects of Scaled Fist will help with unarmed damage. So I won't be too far down in that regard.
EDIT: In any case, good ideas; they helped me out some. Thanks!
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The only restrictions on Power Attack are what’s in the feat. “The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.” You are using neither of those things.
Weapon Finesse has no language to prevent Power Attack.
Elven Branched Spear has no language to prevent Power Attack.
Elven Branched Spear is a two-handed weapon. So you get 1.5x Power Attack with it.
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You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon
Doesn't say anything about Str in there, works with Elven Curved Blade too.
Unchained Rogue is the only way you can get 1.5x Dex on a 2 handed weapon, but anyone can use Power Attack that has a 13+ Str.
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Back to the rest of the discussion, what you say about taking the monk level is true. But you also want to be careful not to split focus too much. Having Improved Unarmed Strike is great. Trying to keep two different attack types up to par in damage will eat up some of your resources.
Also, note that Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity won’t do anything for you if your strength is 10. You only get Dex to damage with one weapon, which would be the Elven Branched Spear. Unchained Rogues don’t get a second Finesse Training weapon until 11th Level. Getting an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists will get you Dex to Damage with your Unarmed Strikes, but that won’t benefit from Dragon Style. There may be some debate about that, but there have been designer comments making it pretty clear that Dex to damage doesn’t benefit from damage multipliers except in the case of the Unchained Rogue’s Finesse Training. Just because you have that doesn’t mean Agile will get that benefit, too.
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Virtuoso Bravo isn't allowed in PFS I think. Iroran was allowed last I read.
Bladed Brush is also not allowed in PFS, sadly; a Shelynite was the first thing I tried before realizing it wouldn't work.
I have to head into work like right this instant, but I'll take a look at Unchained Rogue 4 (any archetypes you'd suggest for this?) plus Power Attack when I get home tonight.
Thanks again for all the great ideas! I feel like this is getting really close to a working Sheet/build.
Actually, you know what? You've convinced me. I want to try Unchained Rogue/Bloodrager. A question, aren't there some feats and/or traits that let the character stay better in control of their actions during rage? Which ones are those?
The urban bloodrager archetype - which is the one you want for a dex bonus anyway - lets you use any skills in a rage, and gives no penalty to AC. You also don't get the will save bonus while raging that other bloodragers do unfortunately.
For rogue archetypes look at scout for sneak attack on a charge, at thug if you like intimidate, at swashbuckler if your character's race is elven, or at phantom thief if you really like skill unlocks.
Think I've got it! Could I get some opinions on this?
PFS Legality required.
Human, NG Align, Deity is Arshea.
Classes: Unchained Rogue (Using Scout + Swashbuckler archetypes) 4 / Bloodrager (Celestial) (using Urban Bloodrager archetype) 7
Racial Ability Substitutions: Lose Human Bonus Feat in favor of Military Tradition (gaining proficiency with Elven Branched Spear and Longbow)
Favored Class: Bloodrager. Favored Class Bonuses: +1 Extra Bloodrager round per day unless people think +1 HP would be better. Definitely want feedback on that!
Stats:
Str 13 (Str 12, then +1 Str at Level 4)
Dex 18 (Str 16 + 2 Human)
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 14 (Cha 13, then +1 Cha at Level 8)
Skills Omitted for brevity.
Traits: Magical Knack (+2 to Bloodrager caster level to make up for multiclassing issues) and Carefully Hidden (+1 Will, +2 vs. Divinations).
At later levels, Additional Traits feat MIGHT be used to get Tianjing Temple Guard (+1 on AOOs with polearms) and Reactionary.
Feats and Class Feature progression:
First 4 levels are Unchained Rogue.
Unchained Rogue 1: Weapon Finesse (automatic), Combat Reflexes (Level 1 base feat), Sneak Attack +1d6. Due to Swashbuckler Archetype, no trapfinding! Instead, gain Proficiency with Spiked Armor.
Level 2: Evasion. Rogue Talent: Combat Trick: Weapon Focus Elven Branched Spear.
Level 3: Weapon Trick: Polearms. Finesse Training now provides Dex to damage on Elven Branched Spear. Sneak Attack +2d6. DON'T gain Danger Sense, due to Archetype use replacing it.
Level 4: Rogue Talent: Combat Trick: Power Attack. Legal due to Swashbuckler Archetype allowing second selection of Combat Trick. Debilitating Injury acquired. DON'T gain Uncanny Dodge, instead gain Scout's Charge from Archetype.
Remaining levels are Bloodrager
Bloodrager 1: Steadfast Personality feat (to fix the Will saves issue). Celestial bloodline. Controlled Bloodrage. Bloodline Power. Fast Movement. Class Skills modified.
Bloodrager 2: Uncanny Dodge.
Bloodrager 3: Lunge feat. DON'T gain Blood Sanctuary, instead do gain Restrained Magic.
Bloodrager 4: Eschew Materials feat (automatic). Bloodline Power, Blood Casting. Celestial Resistances obtained. Spells Gained: Mage Armor and Magic Missile.
Bloodrager 5: Additional Traits (Tianjing Temple Guard and Reactionary) OR Blind-Fight OR Spell Penetration; seeking advice here! Also, new spell: Shield. Gain Improved Uncanny Dodge too.
Bloodrager 6: New spell: Protection from Evil. Bloodline Feat: Improved Initiative or Iron Will or Dodge or swap out for Blood Intensity or Blood Piercing, opinions sought!)
Bloodrager 7: Additional Traits (see above for what I'd take) or Blind Fight or Spell Penetration or Greater Spell Penetration or Toughness. DON'T gain Damage Reduction due to archetype. Instead, gain Bless as a Bloodline Spell and gain Adopted Magic, see below. New bloodrager spells: Scorching Ray and Glitterdust.
As for the Adopted Magic, this is a spell from Magus 1 or Magus 2 or Bard 1 or Bard 2 spell lists. I'm open to ideas, but ones I really like are Stone Call, Cure Moderate Wounds, Fog Cloud, Path of Glory (it's versatile; a low-end light spell and some healing all in one) or Expeditious Retreat, or open to other ideas.
That's everything, I think. Thoughts welcome!
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Everything looks pretty good to me.
Swashbuckler isn’t getting you a whole lot. You could just take armor spikes with your second Martial Tradition proficiency and stick with a short bow until you get Martial weapons from Bloodrager.
You also don’t need the second Combat Trick that Swashbuckler grants. You can take the Weapon Training Ninja Trick for Weapon Focus (Elven Branched Spear) at 2nd, and your 1 Combat Trick for Power Attack at 4th.
For those two reasons, I’d drop Swashbuckler.
The 1st level Bloodline Power for Celestial is actually pretty good. Otherwise I’d suggest trading it for a Bloodline Familiar (hedgehog for bonus to Will saves). But counting as good aligned weapons and doing an extra d6 against evil outsiders is useful.
I’ve got to think that at 9th and 11th level there a feat that’s going to give you something better than a +1 to hit on AoOs and +2 initiative. EDIT: I meant Raging Vitality Reckless Abandon is solid for a Bloodrager. Improved Critical. Or as you noted Spell Penetration Or Toughness. Even Accomplished Sneak Attacker would be a good option at 9th. So many good feats out there. Those traits are good, but the benefits they give are minor at those levels.
EDIT again: Reckless Rage was the other feat I was thinking of. I was conflating Reckless Rage with Reckless Abandon and Raging Vitality. Reckless Abandon isn’t an option (Rage Power, not feat). Either of the other two are solid, if not exciting.
Phalanx Formation would also be good with the reach weapon. Or with a two feat chain, you could get Martial Focus (polearms) and Difficult Swings. So every time you full Attack, Squares adjacent to you become difficult terrain for your enemies, and they can’t 5-foot step and have to provoke to get close enough to attack you.
Thank you for those thoughts, Ferious. I'm... admittedly on my way to bed and half awake, but what's this "Weapon Training Ninja Trick" stuff? I'm not familiar with it. Can you point me at what game material uses it? If so, ditching Swashbuckler becomes pretty easy and would regain Trapfinding; I do like that.
^Weapon training is also a regular Rogue Talent, so save yourself the extra text for Ninja Trick. Note that this has nothing to do with the Fighter class feature of the same name.
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The reason I mentioned swashbuckler is that for an elf an elven branched spear is a martial weapon. Rogues don't normally get that proficiency but swashbuckler archetype rogues do, and of course longbow proficiency is free for elves.
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Or that, heh :)
Yeah, whoops. I forgot it was on the regular Rogue list. Anyway, there’s a dedicated talent to pick up Weapon Focus, so no need to take a second Combat Trick.
Going elf on a Bloodrager just seems wrong. My limited experience playing a Bloodrager is that they need all the hitpoints they can get, because dropping out of rage is dangerous., and they don’t get the d12 of a Barbarian. The con penalty for elf hurts, and the INT bonus doesn’t help this build enough. He bonus to overcome spell resistance would be nice, though.
If you want to look at a race with a con penalty, tengu get Proficiencies with all blades and a bite attack to threaten adjacent. But I’d probably stick with human or half-elf. Both can get proficiency through alternate racial traits. Longbow isn’t that important to have, since it’s a backup weapon and you’ll get it eventually with Bloodrager. I’d suggested it before, because it was a monk build and wouldn’t be an option other than through Martial Tradition.
This is fantastic stuff. I cleaned up the Talents and Feats to go with Lunge (L7), Martial Focus (L9), plus Difficult Swings (L11)... that's about as polearm-y as this build is likely to get, I think. However, I have one last problem: Hit Points.
This character at level 11 has about 87 HP, calculated as follows.
Level 1 contribution: 10, as Full d8 + 2 Con = 10.
Levels 2-4: 7 per, as d8 avg 5 + 2 = 7, * 3 for 3 levels = 21.
Levels 5-11: 8 per, as 6 avg + 2 = 8, * 7 = 56.
56 + 21 + 10 = 87.
87 HP seems awful low for a low AC melee character like this. What can I do to fix it? I could sink in 7 Favored Class Options to get +7 HP (up to 94), but am unsure if this is a good idea. Any other ideas on fixing the HP count?
If anyone is curious, the Feat/Talent layout is as follows:
Racial Ability Substitution: Lose bonus Feat for Military Tradition (Elven Branched Spear and Spiked Armor). All else as normal.
L1: Combat Reflexes.
L2: Rogue Talent: Weapon Training (Weapon Focus in Elven Branched Spear).
L3: Weapon Trick: Polearms
L4: Rogue Talent (Combat Trick: Power Attack gained as a combat feat)
L5: Steadfast Personality (to help with Will saves, which are critically low)
L6: Nothing of note.
L7: Lunge.
L8: Eschew Materials (automatic via class)
L9: Martial Focus in Polearms.
L10: Iron Will (via Bloodline Feat)
L11: Difficult Swings.
At this point I am happy with absolutely everything else in the build, it's just HP that's the issue. Any help with solving this last thing would be appreciated!
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This is fantastic stuff. I cleaned up the Talents and Feats to go with Lunge (L7), Martial Focus (L9), plus Difficult Swings (L11)... that's about as polearm-y as this build is likely to get, I think. However, I have one last problem: Hit Points.
This character at level 11 has about 87 HP, calculated as follows.
Level 1 contribution: 10, as Full d8 + 2 Con = 10.
Levels 2-4: 7 per, as d8 avg 5 + 2 = 7, * 3 for 3 levels = 21.
Levels 5-11: 8 per, as 6 avg + 2 = 8, * 7 = 56.
56 + 21 + 10 = 87.87 HP seems awful low for a low AC melee character like this. What can I do to fix it? I could sink in 7 Favored Class Options to get +7 HP (up to 94), but am unsure if this is a good idea. Any other ideas on fixing the HP count?
If anyone is curious, the Feat/Talent layout is as follows:
Racial Ability Substitution: Lose bonus Feat for Military Tradition (Elven Branched Spear and Spiked Armor). All else as normal.
L1: Combat Reflexes.
L2: Rogue Talent: Weapon Training (Weapon Focus in Elven Branched Spear).
L3: Weapon Trick: Polearms
L4: Rogue Talent (Combat Trick: Power Attack gained as a combat feat)
L5: Steadfast Personality (to help with Will saves, which are critically low)
L6: Nothing of note.
L7: Lunge.
L8: Eschew Materials (automatic via class)
L9: Martial Focus in Polearms.
L10: Iron Will (via Bloodline Feat)
L11: Difficult Swings.At this point I am happy with absolutely everything else in the build, it's just HP that's the issue. Any help with solving this last thing would be appreciated!
i really, really like your name.
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I would put the favored class bonus into hit points. You'll appreciate those more than the extra rounds of rage. Especially in PFS, where it tends to get easier to manage expected use of resources, since you can guess at how many encounters are remaining. You'll have 4+CON bonus at 5th level, so 6-7. That's enough for 2 fights, at least. So don't rage for the first fight, and you should be good. By the time you're 11th level, you'll have another 12 rounds for 19 rounds of rage. Even at higher tiers, 19 rounds of combat is rare in PFS.
Now, you said PFS legal, so I'm assuming for PFS. If it's for a home game, then you'll be able to judge what your adventuring days are like well before you start taking Bloodrager levels.
You're going Urban Bloodrager, which I forgot means you only get 1 stat bonus in Rage. So you won't have temp hit points from that. You'll likely have at least a +2 CON item well before 11th level, though, which would take you to 98HPs, and favored class would put you at 105. That looks much better, but still a little low for a low AC character. It's workable, though. With your DEX, you'll have a higher AC than most Bloodragers, I would think.
There is a little used option to retrain hit points, which is PFS-legal. It can get expensive, because of the way PFS handles retraining costs, charging 1 prestige/day of retraining. Retraining to add 1 HP is 3days. So to add an extra HP at 3rd level would cost 3daysx10gpx3rd level = 90gp plus 3 prestige. I used that to add a few HPs to my Monk, back before Unchained made him a d10 HD character.
if you were to do that every level, it would cost you 1980gp and 33 prestige to effectively get the same result as Toughness. Or maybe you only do it for the 4 Rogue levels to make up for not getting a favored class bonus, and to save prestige.
Freehold DM: Thank you, it's an old 80s sci-fi reference!
Ferious: Yeah, this is for PFS. We're really close to finishing the build, I think. I have one last thing to ask about: How would I be getting a +2 Con item, given that my Belt slot would be going to a Dex belt?
Right now the HP math has me at 94 (87, then + 7 more for favored class options). The +Con item getting me to 105 if we can figure out how that works would be enough; I think 105 HP plus significant Reach and Movement speed will be enough to make up the difference.
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Either turning the belt into a Belt of Physical Might for DEX and CON, which isn't as terrible as it looks initially.
Or buying a Pink Rhomboid Ioun Stone.
The Ioun Stone is a little more expensive initially (8,000gp vs the 6,000gp belt upgrade cost), but would allow you to keep the belt dedicated to DEX.
...That does it, yes. That will get the HP up to 105, which I can accept. Okay, now the build is complete. Thank you very much, Ferious! And thanks to everyone else who shared a lot of great ideas. I learned a lot from it!
