Multiclass Paladin and Lay on Hands

[Blike]

I am building a character that is purely for concept honestly I think multiclassing is always a bad idea in pathfinder I haven't even liked prestige classes much. However, I just lost my previous character and had this idea of a dex based paladin that uses a longsword two handed (yes I know greatsword is better and elven curve blade has finesse but concept is the goal) and the only way I could find to do this is taking a 4 level dip in weapon master fighter to get advanced weapon training to use weapon finesse with a longsword.
I don't mind most of what I sacrifice in doing this I am going hospitaler paladin so the part I don't like is that my loh is only 2d6 and my channel is only 1d6 at level 8. obviously there are traits to increase caster level for multiclassing casters and feats like boon companion out there but I can't for the life of me find something that helps loh or channel energy in multiclassing. Anyone know of anything.

[Zhangar]

They exist, but its looks like they're really expensive.

Bracers of the Merciful Knight

Crystal of Healing Hands

Every magic item on d20pfsrd that mentions Lay on hands

Also, this should probably be in the Advice forum, so I flagged it.

[Blike]

Zhangar wrote:

They exist, but its looks like they're really expensive.

Bracers of the Merciful Knight

Crystal of Healing Hands

Every magic item on d20pfsrd that mentions Lay on hands

Also, this should probably be in the Advice forum, so I flagged it.

Ok I don't post on these forums often at all so that's fine that you flagged it. The Bracers of the Merciful knight were a great example I know I've seen them before but they slipped my mind. I had also looked at a phylactery of positive channeling but as you mentioned the problem with both is the cost and I spent all my gold to not be crap in melee basically.lol

Thanks for the links.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

VMC Cavalier with Order of the Star grants half your class level to Lay On Hands, letting you dip up to 10 levels. Not the same as actual multiclassing, but certainly very powerful.

[Fuzzy-Wuzzy]

I haven't looked at the details, but are you sure you can't get what you want with a single-classed paladin, the Martial Focus feat (lets you pretend to have weapon training), and the Advanced Weapon Training feat?

[Blike]

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

I haven't looked at the details, but are you sure you can't get what you want with a single-classed paladin, the Martial Focus feat (lets you pretend to have weapon training), and the Advanced Weapon Training feat?

Martial focus lets you have "weapon training" but doesn't meet other requirements. You can't take the Advanced weapon training options without the feat till level 9 and the feat Advanced Weapon Training requires fighter level 5 unless you are a Weapon master in which case it's fighter level 4.

I had thought about that feat but then looked at it and it doesn't give me the fighter level requirement.

[Blike]

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

VMC Cavalier with Order of the Star grants half your class level to Lay On Hands, letting you dip up to 10 levels. Not the same as actual multiclassing, but certainly very powerful.

That Cavalier order is pretty cool but unfortunately doesn't help with the fact that the levels need to be fighter not cavalier for weapon training.

[fearcypher]

Maybe an (Aldori) Dueling Sword?

You'd have a special type of longsword that can be finessed. And if you wanted to you could get 1.5 strength to damage with it. Play a human and you'd have the two feats you'd need at first level and then you could grab power attack at 3rd if your strength is at least 13. You'd stay a single classed paladin and would still be able to pull of the concept.

[Chess Pwn]

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

I haven't looked at the details, but are you sure you can't get what you want with a single-classed paladin, the Martial Focus feat (lets you pretend to have weapon training), and the Advanced Weapon Training feat?

Martial focus only lets you count as having weapon training for weapon mastery feats, not for AWT feats.

[SmiloDan]

If 3pp feats are allowed, check out Mystical Healer.

[UnArcaneElection]

fearcypher wrote:

Maybe an (Aldori) Dueling Sword?

You'd have a special type of longsword that can be finessed. And if you wanted to you could get 1.5 strength to damage with it. Play a human and you'd have the two feats you'd need at first level and then you could grab power attack at 3rd if your strength is at least 13. You'd stay a single classed paladin and would still be able to pull of the concept.

You can get some other options for going single-class (assuming that your first character feat is always Weapon Finesse) with alternate racial traits:

Half-Elf from Brevoy with Ancestral Weapon (Aldori Dueling Sword) also works.

Human with Military Tradition from Brevoy works even better: In exchange for your bonus feat, you get proficiency with 2 Exotic (or Martial, but that's redundant) weapons. Not sure what the best other Exotic weapon for that region would be.

Technically, the Heirloom Weapon trait also works for this, but if something bad happens to your weapon, you're hosed.

If you want something other than an Aldori Dueling Sword to make a Dex-based Paladin, Virtuous Bravo is a hybrid of Paladin and Swashbuckler. Still single class, but it weakens Smite Evil and traces out Mercy and Spellcasting. So another possibility for a Paladin-Swashbuckler hybrid is to dip just 1 level of whatever Swashbuckler archetype you want and go all the rest of the way in whatever Paladin archetype you want -- this doesn't compensate for delay of Paladin abilities, but at least reduces that delay to just 1 level. If you want to switch hit, you could even start with the new Arrow Champion Swashbuckler archetype from Ultimate Wilderness (just this week added to www.d20pfsrd.com, but not yet added to Archives of Nethys, which was last updated 2017-09-20).

[HWalsh]

Blike wrote:

I am building a character that is purely for concept honestly I think multiclassing is always a bad idea in pathfinder I haven't even liked prestige classes much. However, I just lost my previous character and had this idea of a dex based paladin that uses a longsword two handed (yes I know greatsword is better and elven curve blade has finesse but concept is the goal) and the only way I could find to do this is taking a 4 level dip in weapon master fighter to get advanced weapon training to use weapon finesse with a longsword.

I don't mind most of what I sacrifice in doing this I am going hospitaler paladin so the part I don't like is that my loh is only 2d6 and my channel is only 1d6 at level 8. obviously there are traits to increase caster level for multiclassing casters and feats like boon companion out there but I can't for the life of me find something that helps loh or channel energy in multiclassing. Anyone know of anything.

There is a much easier way to accomplish what you want to do...

Purchase an Effortless Lace. Done. Now your Paladin can use Weapon Finesse with a Longsword.

It won't get you Dexterity to Damage, but it will get you 2 handed Finesse.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Blike wrote:

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

VMC Cavalier with Order of the Star grants half your class level to Lay On Hands, letting you dip up to 10 levels. Not the same as actual multiclassing, but certainly very powerful.

That Cavalier order is pretty cool but unfortunately doesn't help with the fact that the levels need to be fighter not cavalier for weapon training.

The idea is that you take 10 levels of Paladin and 10 levels of whatever class you want (such as Fighter), while still maintaining full Lay On Hands (and by relation Channel Energy) progression.

You can use VMC in addition to multiclassing, the only requirement is that you cannot have levels in the class you are using for VMC (in this case, Cavalier).

[Java Man]

A virtous bravo paladin with slashing grace might work.

Or dip daring champion cavalier with order of the star.

[SmiloDan]

VMC Cavalier, Order of the Star, is great on a paladin or cleric.

At 7th level, you channel/lay on hands as a 10th level paladin (5d6+10 with Fey Foundling, 7d6+14 with that Mystical Healing feat).

[Blike]

So the gm actually doesn't allow anything third party, out of occult, or advanced class guide, and doesn't allow vmc. The Effortless Lace was a fantastic Idea can't believe I've never seen that before thank you.

[HWalsh]

Blike wrote:

So the gm actually doesn't allow anything third party, out of occult, or advanced class guide, and doesn't allow vmc. The Effortless Lace was a fantastic Idea can't believe I've never seen that before thank you.

Well with the Effortless Lace you get to be a full Paladin, and all the Benefits that entails, you get full access to Lay on Hands, if you want you only need the Weapon Finesse Feat, and you can still pull Fey Foundling/Greater Mercy if you want AND you can still get the full benefit out of Power Attack (if you have a base Str of 13, but since your damage is still Strength based you want a 14 to capitalize on 1.5x Strength)

[SmiloDan]

Do you need any feats beyond Weapon Finesse, Fey Foundling, Power Attack, and Greater Mercy? I guess you could take Lunge or Vital Strike at 7th.

[HWalsh]

SmiloDan wrote:

Do you need any feats beyond Weapon Finesse, Fey Foundling, Power Attack, and Greater Mercy? I guess you could take Lunge or Vital Strike at 7th.

Depends on what you want to do...

Heh, though not important to this thread, Paladins are a passion of mine and I have a number of interesting feet trees with Paladins in mind.

One of my favorite ones (that is a 2 handed Paladin) is:

(Level 13 Build)

Human Paladin who Venerates Shelyn and Arshae that fights with beauty and grace!

Paladin Example:

Note: Why this works:
Unlike some things (Divine Fighting Technique) Bladed Brush only calls for a Worshiper of Shelyn, where DFT calls for a worshipper of ONLY that specific god. We know in the rules you can worship more than one, there is actually a feat for it. So, in this case, we meet the requirements through RP. Also both beings are of the proper alignment, allies, and extremely complementary flavor-wise.

Stats: 14/16/12/10/8/16

Class: Un.Monk (Scaled Fist) 1, Paladin 6, Mystery Cultist (Arshae) 6

Level 1: Un. Monk (Scaled Fist)
Level 2: Paladin
Level 3: Paladin
Level 4: Paladin
Level 5: Paladin
Level 6: Paladin
Level 7: Paladin
Level 8: Mystery Cultist (Arshae)
Level 9: Mystery Cultist (Arshae)
Level 10: Mystery Cultist (Arshae)
Level 11: Mystery Cultist (Arshae)
Level 12: Mystery Cultist (Arshae)
Level 13: Mystery Cultist (Arshae)

Skills: Any that you want, but you need at least 7 ranks in Knowledge (Religion).

Feats:
Human - Weapon Focus (Glaive)
Level 1 - Bladed Brush
Monk 1 (Bonus) - Combat Expertise
Level 3 - Weapon Finesse (Glaive)
Level 5 - Power Attack
Level 7 - Celestial Obedience: Arshae
Level 9 - Greater Mercy
Level 11 - Combat Reflexes
Level 13 - Ultimate Mercy

Stat Raises:
4 - +1 Charisma
8 - +1 Charisma
12 - +1 Dexterity

Expected Stat Enhancements:
5 - +2 Dexterity
7 - +2 Dexterity / +2 Charisma
10 - +4 Dexterity / +2 Charisma
12 - +4 Dexterity / +4 Charisma
13 - +4 Dexterity / +4 Strength / +4 Charisma

Expected Stats:
18/21/12/10/8/22

Item Loadout:

-40k - Belt of Physical Might +4
-16k - Headband of Charisma +4
-16k - +2 Weapon
-15.6k - Bracers of the Merciful Knight
-9k - Amulet of Natural Armor +2
-4.5k - Cloak of Resistance +3

At level 13:

AC: 29 (10 +5(Dex) +6(Cha) +6(Armor Bonus from Boon) +2(AoNA))
During Glory: 33
During Smite: 35
During Glory/Smite: 41 (Nothing is hitting you... Ever.)

LoH's Per Day: 11
+5 (From Effective Paladin Level for LoH) +6 (Cha)

Healing: 5d6 HP per with Mercy, 6d6 per Without Mercy... Not bad.
Smite Evil 2/Day

Saves:
Fort: +19 (+5 +2 +2 +1 +6 +3)
Ref: +20 (+2 +2 +2 +5 +6 +3)
Will: +16 (+5 +0 +3 -1 +6 +3)

BAB: +11/+5 (+1 +6 +4)

Single Attack (assuming Power Attack): +16 (+11 +2 +5 +1 -3)
Full Attack (assuming PA and Flurry): +16/+16/+11

Melee Weapon Damage: 1d10+17 (+6(Str x 1.5) +2(Weapon Enh) +9(PA))

Caster Level: 8 (+6 -3 +5) (10 if you have Magical Knack: Paladin)

Spell Slots: 4/3/2/- (note: This ain't bad.)

Oh, you can also raise dead allies by expending 10 LoH's without needing a material component, it only costs a temporary negative level... So... Useful.

This is just one example of what someone can do with a character going outside of the mold (There isn't even power gaming involved) to create a unique character.

I added this as an example of another non-traditional paladin who uses a 2 handed Finesse Weapon, Dex for Attack, Strength for Damage.

[SmiloDan]

I made a half-elf paladin once that was a wannabe Ironman/Thor/Captain America. Wielded warhammer and shield, and also went the Bludgeoner/Enforcer route.

14 15 12 10 10 14 or something (ALL boosts into Dex)

Traits: Bully (Intimidate is a class skill), Magical Knack (paladin)

1. Two-Weapon Fighting
1. Skill Focus Intimidate (half elf)
3. Bludgeoner
5. Enforcer
7. Shield Focus
9. Improved Shield Bash
11. Improved Two Weapon Fighting
13. Eldritch Heritage?
15.
17. Greater Two Weapon Fighting
19.