TL;DR: Dragon Disciple for Bloodrager is seeming like just a significant raw power increase rather than expanding options...which I thought had changed for Prestige Classes.
There's a Bloodrager 5/Dragon Disciple 4 in my campaign. Without getting into a debate of Bloodragers vs other classes, it seems there's a significant amount of power gained from the Dragon Disciple levels.
- 4 extra strength
- 2 extra AC
- bite attack
This comes at the cost of...
- 1 BAB
- 1 caster level
- DR 1/-
- 8 rounds of rage (looking at it, I think he's made a mistake or I'm missing something -- I'm coming up with 15 rounds of rage for him but he has 22 listed...4 base, 3 from 16 Con, 8 from levels...so this might be a bigger deal than I thought)
That works out to a net gain of 1 AB, 2 damage (3 with the bite), 2 more AC, and another primary attack with 1.5 strength modifier...at the cost of 1 caster level, 1 more damage taken per hit, and less raging per day.
And that bite is over a 50% increase in damage output while not hasted and still over a 33% bonus when hasted...so that's huge. Seems like you'd be stupid NOT to go DD levels if you want be Draconic Bloodrager (especially if you're going natural attacks).
To rephrase: DD seems like it was written with Sorcerer and Bard in mind...concerned about it combined with Bloodrager (which gets things like infinite claws and thus infinite bite per day, for example). Is Draconic Bloodline just considered weak overall or something? And it needs DD to boost it to the power of other bloodlines? Or is BR/DD just stronger than BR?
I would imagine that in an ideal world BR20 is the same power as BR10/DD10, just BR is more brute force and BR/DD is more draconic abilities to make up for less raw output...but that doesn't seem to be the case at the moment.
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How are you suggesting a Bloodrager would get "infinite claws"? Were you aware that the Bloodrager's bloodline abilities are only active whilst bloodraging (unless they state otherwise, which the Draconic abilities do not)?
jbadams wrote: Were you aware that the Bloodrager's bloodline abilities are only active whilst bloodraging (unless they state otherwise, which the Draconic abilities do not)? How interesting. It seems you are correct. It's not in the description for Bloodrage, though after some searching I did find this:
"When a bloodrager enters a bloodrage, he often takes on a physical transformation influenced by his bloodline and powered by the magic that roils within him. Unless otherwise specified, he gains the effects of his bloodline powers only while in a bloodrage; once the bloodrage ends, all powers from his bloodline immediately cease, and any physical changes the bloodrager underwent revert, restoring him to normal."
Which is what I assume you are referring to.
So he loses 2 AC, 10 fire resistance, the bite attack, the claws, and cannot breath fire while not using his own bloodrage rounds (there's a skald in the party).
That makes a massive difference. He thought he had those active 100% of the time. I have no reason to think he was trying to cheat or anything, but it seems we need to have a chat.
Edit: if I was willing to let him keep his claws 100% of the time (but no bite/AC/fire resist/breath unless raging) would that cause any balance issue that you can see?
Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Dragon Disciple levels do not grant additional rounds of bloodrage. Bloodrage is in no way a feature of his bloodline. That lack of improvement to bloodrage is the biggest weakness of a Bloodrager/Dragon Disciple. I think your player assumed that those Dragon Disciple levels did grant additional rounds of bloodrage and then miscalculated the result given that premise.
He has claws only when bloodraging. That does give him more rounds than a Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple would get, but it certainly isn't "infinite".
And his spellcasting is falling slightly behind unless he spends feats to keep it up.
Finally, note that the Dragon Disciple prestige class grants no further bonuses to strength after 4th level, so nothing will make up for the 2 additional BAB points he would lose if he continues to advance in that class. Most likely, he won't take any more Dragon Disciple levels because he already has all of the levels that will boost his combat ability.
The only problem I see with this character is that you need to work out which Bloodrager abilities come from his bloodline (and thus are advanced by Dragon Disciple levels) and which come solely from his class (and thus are not advanced by his Dragon Disciple levels).
At least he didn't bring up the unresolved issue of whether Dragon Disciple would advance his Sorcerer bloodline abilities (as it clearly would do for any qualifying character with no Bloodrager levels). But in that case, most of the Sorcerer and Bloodrager bloodline abilities would not stack, at least.
I'm not sure why he felt the need, honestly.
Comparing the two options, BR20 has:
* +2 Con when raging
* +3 DR/-
BR10/DD10 has:
* +3 natural armor
* +2 Int
* +4 Str and +2 Con when not raging
* Bite attack that deals 1.5x Strength damage
* Form of the dragon II 2/day
Bloodragers don't usually care about high AC anyway since they lose AC during bloodrage, and the +2 Int from DD doesn't give them much benefit. The bite attack is good, but a Primalist bloodrager can easily swap out a power they don't care about to get a bite attack (albeit a slightly weaker one). Getting form of the dragon doesn't seem to help much when they can get it automatically by bloodraging, and they probably only need it while raging to begin with.
Regarding the character's number of rounds of rage, they might have feats or traits that increase how much they get. Some races get additional rounds of bloodrage as a favored class bonus too; if he's one of those races, double check to make sure he didn't take the FCB for his DD levels as well.
Most of the level 8 bloodline powers are very good, for example the arcane bloodline gives displacement (the spell) or the spell haste while bloodraging for free, just for bloodraging. Putting these benefits off until later could be a huge cost to pay, depending on the bloodline IMO.
Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
He isn't delaying his bloodline powers at all.
But the large number of Barbarian 4/Bard 1/Dragon Disciple 4/Barbarian +11 builds I recall seeing in the pre-Advanced Class Guide days does suggest that a Bloodrager 5/Dragon Disciple +4/Bloodrager +11 build would be a powerful option to consider.
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Balkoth wrote: TL;DR: Dragon Disciple for Bloodrager is seeming like just a significant raw power increase rather than expanding options...which I thought had changed for Prestige Classes.
There's a Bloodrager 5/Dragon Disciple 4 in my campaign. Without getting into a debate of Bloodragers vs other classes, it seems there's a significant amount of power gained from the Dragon Disciple levels.
- 4 extra strength
- 2 extra AC
- bite attack
This comes at the cost of...
- 1 BAB
- 1 caster level
- DR 1/-
- 8 rounds of rage (looking at it, I think he's made a mistake or I'm missing something -- I'm coming up with 15 rounds of rage for him but he has 22 listed...4 base, 3 from 16 Con, 8 from levels...so this might be a bigger deal than I thought)
That works out to a net gain of 1 AB, 2 damage (3 with the bite), 2 more AC, and another primary attack with 1.5 strength modifier...at the cost of 1 caster level, 1 more damage taken per hit, and less raging per day.
And that bite is over a 50% increase in damage output while not hasted and still over a 33% bonus when hasted...so that's huge. Seems like you'd be stupid NOT to go DD levels if you want be Draconic Bloodrager (especially if you're going natural attacks).
To rephrase: DD seems like it was written with Sorcerer and Bard in mind...concerned about it combined with Bloodrager (which gets things like infinite claws and thus infinite bite per day, for example). Is Draconic Bloodline just considered weak overall or something? And it needs DD to boost it to the power of other bloodlines? Or is BR/DD just stronger than BR?
I would imagine that in an ideal world BR20 is the same power as BR10/DD10, just BR is more brute force and BR/DD is more draconic abilities to make up for less raw output...but that doesn't seem to be the case at the moment.
Understand that, at this point, the Bloodrager/DD combo is at its high point, and full attacks aren't at a comparable level yet (unless you're an Archer). However, if he invests into Dragon Disciple any further, he loses out on major Bloodrager benefits that won't be worth it in the long run.
Even right now, he's delayed/reduced his Rage rounds, and he's delayed his Greater Bloodrage benefits and spellcasting. He's outright cut out his Mighty Bloodrage, as well as any of the other high-end features, since Bloodrager 16 is as high as he can go. The only benefits are that he has slightly more standard hit points (though Mighty Bloodrage would make up that difference easily by the endgame), he has more Strength (which is only slightly higher than what Mighty Bloodrage would grant), and he has a Bloodline feat sooner than usual.
But, the biggest drawback of all is that he is a Natural Weapons specialist. Natural Weapons are static, and in most cases, they are powerful in the early game due that they are plentiful and without drawback, which is almost impossible to replicate at the levels where it's truly strong. However, as levels are gained, they lose value because the things that made them so good become replicated or replaced, and as such makes them obsolete.
I wouldn't be too worried about him being super powerful. He's not going to outpace an Archer, who is a lot more devastating when built correctly.
It's basically hit its peak. There's no more attack boosters in DD and they lose BAB if they keep going. They'll also lose even more spellcasting. In two levels a regular Bloodrager will get +2 Str and Con over this build from Greater Bloodrage. Also the ability to slap a buff spell on themselves (Bull's Strength would completely negate the Str advantage).
Basically, you're looking a snapshot of the best possible time. Like a Mutation Warrior 3/Barb 1. It can get up to +8 Str! For like 8 rounds a day. And gives up Armor Training to do so, which now actually has a use. And whichever side it focuses on afterwards will always end up a little behind.
Bob Bob Bob wrote: Like a Mutation Warrior 3/Barb 1. It can get up to +8 Str! For like 8 rounds a day. And gives up Armor Training to do so, which now actually has a use. And whichever side it focuses on afterwards will always end up a little behind. Mutation Warrior 3 with VMC Barbarian would be even stronger, since it gets full Fighter progression and access to Rage Powers at the higher levels. Rage Rounds can be shored up with the Extra Rage feat, and Fighters have plenty of bonus feats to burn...
Bob Bob Bob wrote: Basically, you're looking a snapshot of the best possible time. Darksol the Painbringer wrote: Understand that, at this point, the Bloodrager/DD combo is at its high point I feel it's worth pointing out that said character literally just joined the campaign. At level 9. So this is the only aspect of it I've actually seen.
Darksol the Painbringer wrote: and full attacks aren't at a comparable level yet (unless you're an Archer). Yeah, I'm very much not thrilled with the Oath of Vengeance Paladin archer in the group right now.
Darksol the Painbringer wrote: But, the biggest drawback of all is that he is a Natural Weapons specialist. Natural Weapons are static, and in most cases, they are powerful in the early game due that they are plentiful and without drawback, which is almost impossible to replicate at the levels where it's truly strong. However, as levels are gained, they lose value because the things that made them so good become replicated or replaced, and as such makes them obsolete. Can you elaborate on this?
Darksol the Painbringer wrote: I wouldn't be too worried about him being super powerful. He's not going to outpace an Archer, who is a lot more devastating when built correctly. Yeah, I've been considering a house rule nerf to the Paladin archer for a while. Feels like the whole "zillion attacks" from archery stacks too well with the static damage bonus from Smite Evil/Divine Bond/Divine Favor...and he can do it from across the map to boot. Inclined to think BOTH archers and Paladins could do with a nerf (smallish one on the Paladin, maybe even just making it harder to pre-buff).
Really feels like archery was designed with a Rogue or Bard in mind who had low strength and lacked a lot of AB/damage bonuses...so they added in things like Manyshot to help. But in the hands of a Fighter/Paladin an archer is going to outdamage a 2H weapon user, even if both always get to full attack...at least at this level.
archery was designed to be the best combat style "balanced" by the lots of feats and how easy it is for enemies to get cover from the archer's allies that are in the way.
Let's say our Bloodrager was 1st level. When he rages, he gets Claws. Those Claws each have an attack at full BAB, with no penalties, and deals full Strength and Power Attack damage. Compared to a two-hander with Power Attack, he'll be more consistent (as he has more attacks at equivalent bonuses) and have more peak damage (double Strength and Power Attack versus 1.5x Strength and Power Attack), without any sacrifices.
When he gets his Bite attack (7th level), he'll have 3 attacks at full BAB, with a bite that gets 1.5x Strength and Power Attack. Unless you have an Archer with Manyshot and Rapid Shot, with multiple static bonuses (such as your Paladin), there won't be much to compare because that's when iteratives just start being commonplace, and there isn't much support for them.
Later down the road, when people get 3+ attacks, they'll be at a comparable level with the Bloodrager, and as they get more attacks and more supplements to said attacks, the Bloodrager's big advantage (more attacks at equivalent or higher bonuses) starts to go away.
That's not factoring in things like having to wade into melee, which means there are rounds that they aren't full attacking, whereas the Archer Paladin can easily get away with it.
Darksol the Painbringer wrote: Bob Bob Bob wrote: Like a Mutation Warrior 3/Barb 1. It can get up to +8 Str! For like 8 rounds a day. And gives up Armor Training to do so, which now actually has a use. And whichever side it focuses on afterwards will always end up a little behind. Mutation Warrior 3 with VMC Barbarian would be even stronger, since it gets full Fighter progression and access to Rage Powers at the higher levels. Rage Rounds can be shored up with the Extra Rage feat, and Fighters have plenty of bonus feats to burn... Oddly enough, extra rage is a general feat, not a combat feat, so you can't actually take it with a fighter bonus feat. I mean, they should have enough regular feats to take it as well, but it's odd that most of the feats that affect rage seem to be general, and not combat.
Deighton Thrane wrote: Darksol the Painbringer wrote: Bob Bob Bob wrote: Like a Mutation Warrior 3/Barb 1. It can get up to +8 Str! For like 8 rounds a day. And gives up Armor Training to do so, which now actually has a use. And whichever side it focuses on afterwards will always end up a little behind. Mutation Warrior 3 with VMC Barbarian would be even stronger, since it gets full Fighter progression and access to Rage Powers at the higher levels. Rage Rounds can be shored up with the Extra Rage feat, and Fighters have plenty of bonus feats to burn... Oddly enough, extra rage is a general feat, not a combat feat, so you can't actually take it with a fighter bonus feat. I mean, they should have enough regular feats to take it as well, but it's odd that most of the feats that affect rage seem to be general, and not combat. I know. They can select Extra Rage Power at 11th level and every odd level thereafter, and they get a free one at 11th as well.
So, they can take Lesser and Standard Beast Totem by 11th level, take Greater by 13th level, which puts them at Pouncing capabilities 3 levels behind a standard Barbarian, all while maintaining full Fighter progression.
I really need to crunch the numbers on what this character can do. It's terrifying when I think about all the stuff that's going on.
It seems to me that you are not really that comfortable with high damaging characters. A fully optimized martial character is supposed to deal out large amounts of damage. This is pretty much their only real contribution to combat. At lower levels they seem to be overpowering, but once a full caster gains enough levels they soon fall behind. A high level 9th level caster can often shutdown an entire encounter with a single spell. The only real problem with a characters power is when one character is substantially more powerful than the other characters. Since you are worried about both the paladin and the bloodrager it seems to me that they are probably about equal and do not need any adjustments.
The best way to challenge a party is not to weaken the characters, but rather to increase the power of the opponents. If your party is having too easy of a time, increase the power of the enemies. This is a lot better way than nerfing the PC’s.
I love the Bloodrager/Dragon Disciple combo. I have one that I play in PFS which is turning into quite a beast...I didn't go the natural attacks route though, I went with a greataxe. I also opted to go with the Steelblood archetype, so I would end up with decent AC (even when raging).
Mysterious Stranger wrote: The best way to challenge a party is not to weaken the characters, but rather to increase the power of the opponents. If your party is having too easy of a time, increase the power of the enemies. This is a lot better way than nerfing the PC’s.
Alternatively, try introducing more encounters that can't be beaten through brute strength. Being able to demolish an enemy in 1-2 turns won't do you any good when the party needs to make skill checks to get things done.
Another thing to keep in mind about the paladin: He might have a lot of uses of Smite Evil with the Oath of Vengeance, but each use of Smite only applies to one enemy. If he's killing an enemy in only 1 turn with his damage output, he's spending one use of Smite Evil every turn just to keep that buff while switching targets.
Plus, Divine Bond/Divine Favor aren't as powerful as Smite Evil, so once he runs out of Smites his damage output is going to go down. It'll still be good, but nowhere near Smite levels.
Why nerf the damage dealers? They are an important part of every group. A good striker needs to out damage the other members of the party by at least 50-75%.
Why not nerf the healer who resurrect the dead or the wizard that gates in Solar?
Also remember that the paladin only gets his smite evil against evil. Make the BBEG a neutral (or at least non-evil) and his big bonus goes away.
Natural attacks also begin to suffer at this time against opponents with DR. A simple DR 10/Silver is easy to overcome by a weapon wielder - not so a natural attacker. As they get higher level, the likelihood of meeting an opponent with significant DR increases, further nerfing the Natural Attacker.
*Khan* wrote: Why nerf the damage dealers? They are an important part of every group. A good striker needs to out damage the other members of the party by at least 50-75%.
Why not nerf the healer who resurrect the dead or the wizard that gates in Solar?
Perhaps read The Forge of Combat.
Chess Pwn wrote: archery was designed to be the best combat style "balanced" by the lots of feats and how easy it is for enemies to get cover from the archer's allies that are in the way. The first part seems to be less of an issue as you get higher level, doubly so for classes like Fighters/Rangers/Slayers/Warpriests...especially since archery seems so strong that even lacking feats like Weapon Focus still leaves it as the strongest.
The latter is irrelevant at level 11+ for full BAB classes (or level 6 for Rangers/Slayers) with Improved Precise Shot. Seems hard to say "We're balancing archery by something that doesn't apply for 50% of the game" (arguably more since people could easily spend more time per level at higher levels).
Darksol the Painbringer wrote: Later down the road, when people get 3+ attacks, they'll be at a comparable level with the Bloodrager, and as they get more attacks and more supplements to said attacks, the Bloodrager's big advantage (more attacks at equivalent or higher bonuses) starts to go away. Sorry, to clarify, I see how multiple natural attacks (bite, bite, claw) is crazy good at lower levels. I was more asking how it got so much weaker apparently at higher levels (and I'm not thrilled with the sound of "Oh, he'll breeze through encounters meant to be challenging at low level and then get the party killed due to being weak at high level").
I mean, at level 11 a Bloodrager using a 2H weapon gets an extra attack, sure, but it's also at -10 AB from his best attack. At level 16 it's at -15 AB. Those don't add that much DPR unless you're attacking something with awful AC (either from having awful AC or being much weaker).
Darksol the Painbringer wrote: That's not factoring in things like having to wade into melee, which means there are rounds that they aren't full attacking, whereas the Archer Paladin can easily get away with it. Sure, but those are two separate issues. I'm comparing a Bloodrager with a 2H weapon to a Bloodrager using natural weapons right now. Ranged vs melee has another whole set of issues.
Mysterious Stranger wrote: It seems to me that you are not really that comfortable with high damaging characters. A fully optimized martial character is supposed to deal out large amounts of damage. This is pretty much their only real contribution to combat. So why is this Bloodrager with no buffs but Bloodrage doing 35-50% more damage than a 2H Fighter? Slayer is even further behind the Fighter and Ranger is probably even worse off versus non-favored enemies especially.
Hell, at this point a Barbarian has +2 AB/+3 damage from Rage while a Fighter has +3 AB (1 from GWF, 2 from Weapon Training)/+4 damage (2 from WS, 2 from Weapon Training)...so unless the Barbarian has rage powers to boost offense the Barbarian is significantly behind as well.
Mysterious Stranger wrote: A high level 9th level caster can often shutdown an entire encounter with a single spell.
The best way to challenge a party is not to weaken the characters, but rather to increase the power of the opponents.
I'd like to point out that you made both of these statements nearly back to back...
Mysterious Stranger wrote: If your party is having too easy of a time, increase the power of the enemies. This is a lot better way than nerfing the PC’s. I'm already getting situations like this one where doing so has me concerned about a TPK if things go wrong due to scaling breakpoints of more powerful enemies.
This gets even messier considering I've been using a fair chunk of humanoid enemies with class levels. Say I determine the party (currently level 9) can handle CR15 encounters using "normal" monsters. Rough fight, but winnable. Per that logic, I could create an evil adventuring party of eight level 9s with PC wealth and send them at the party (that's also a CR15 encounter). But we can clearly see the PCs would be of roughly equal power to the NPCs and then also be outnumbered...that's certainly not reasonable. And then we might be mixing and matching bestiary entries with class level enemies.
And we also get back to your point of power differences -- an enemy strong enough to put up a fight against the Bloodrager/Paladin could very well one round another party member. Power levels should be roughly equal with different strengths/weaknesses.
Also, just to be clear -- I have no qualms with a Paladin being strong against an evil opponent they smited...part of the job description. Yet Smite Evil being strong and Archery being strong clearly does not give license to defeat a Demon Lord while being level 9 -- the power gap is too large. Should they be able to defeat an equal CR evil foe with Smite without too much of a problem? Sure, I'll accept that. CR+1? Sure. CR+2? Eh...now we're talking double the Paladin's power. CR+3? CR+4? At what point is the Paladin punching too far above her weight class?
Will respond to more later, have to head to sleep tonight.
Just want to say...prinalist rageshaper dragon disciple. Let’s assume lvl8. Half-Orc with Str26 (18 at lvl1, +2 from lvls 4+8, +2 from DD, +4 rage) and Power Attack. Enemies have robbed him of everything.
2x claw attacks: +13/+13 (+7 BaB, + 8 Str, -2 PA)
Damage: 2d8+12 (+8 Str, +4 PA) (2d8 from rageshaper)
1x gore attack: +13
Damage: 1d8+12
1x Bite Attack: +13
Damage: 1d6+18 (+12 Str, +6 PA)
That’s 4 attacks, all with a good chance of hitting. That can pump out a lot of damage.
Can having 2 attacks (1 iterative) with a falchion and +1 BaB (better power attack) do more? Maybe. But the bloodrager/dragon disciple can be powerful.
Heck...the above bloodrager could even carry around an adamantine two handed weapon just for when rage runs out...
How is a naked Bloodrager getting a gore attack?
Darksol the Painbringer wrote: How is a naked Bloodrager getting a gore attack? Lesser fiend totem from primalist?
Diachronos wrote: Alternatively, try introducing more encounters that can't be beaten through brute strength. Being able to demolish an enemy in 1-2 turns won't do you any good when the party needs to make skill checks to get things done. The players generally seem to prefer combat encounters and have seemed a bit lost at times at more open ended or less violent points of the campaign. Just giving the party what interests them.
Diachronos wrote: Another thing to keep in mind about the paladin: He might have a lot of uses of Smite Evil with the Oath of Vengeance, but each use of Smite only applies to one enemy. If he's killing an enemy in only 1 turn with his damage output, he's spending one use of Smite Evil every turn just to keep that buff while switching targets. Sure. And if the party is attacked by three Frost Giants (CR12 encounter) killing one with a Smite in 1-2 turns is already doing more than his part for a "hard" encounter. If the party is attacked by half a dozen Duergar soldiers being led by a captain, smiting the captain and killing him means the paladin could take a nap for the rest of the encounter and the party would be happy. Anything past that point is gravy. He already has eight Smite Evils per day instead of three -- so if there's four difficult encounters (actually difficult ones) per day he can still kill two high priority enemies per combat. And then it's usually just clean-up at that point.
Your logic only works if most encounters involve a swarm of individually weak targets with no leader...but Smite is overkill on those targets anyway mostly and he can kill them easily even without it.
Diachronos wrote: Plus, Divine Bond/Divine Favor aren't as powerful as Smite Evil, so once he runs out of Smites his damage output is going to go down. It'll still be good, but nowhere near Smite levels. Honestly? When it matters (on potentially lethal targets), he's going to run out of Divine Bonds/Divine Favor time first. Only has two Divine Bonds per day and a few Divine Favors...but as noted above he could smite two targets per encounter if there's four encounters per day (aka, kill stuff fast when it matters most at the start of each encounter to remove enemy action economy).
Basically, anything not difficult enough means he doesn't bother using his limited use abilities, they're not needed (he can afford to be weaker or the rest of the party can handle it). Anything difficult gets obliterated. In theory there's a extremely fine line that could be walked there, but that's incredibly difficult to do.
Again, though, I don't think he needs to be nerfed into the ground or anything. But I am inclined to think both archery and Paladin buffing potential (pre-combat) need to be toned down slightly...if the Paladin gets ambushed and has to only Smite (or use combat turns to buff with Divine Bond/Divine Favor) I have zero qualms with Paladins.
*Khan* wrote: Why nerf the damage dealers? They are an important part of every group. A good striker needs to out damage the other members of the party by at least 50-75%. This striker is out-damaging OTHER strikers by 50%. He's doing 50% more than a Fighter, Barbarian, or Slayer at a minimum. The Fighter/Barbarian/Slayer are ALREADY outdamaging the other members of the party by 50-75% or whatever and that's totally fine.
*Khan* wrote: Why not nerf the healer who resurrect the dead or the wizard that gates in Solar? I think we're a long way from Solars. Nor is there a healer resurrecting the dead mid-combat that I know of.
Gavmania wrote: Also remember that the paladin only gets his smite evil against evil. Make the BBEG a neutral (or at least non-evil) and his big bonus goes away. The BBEG is a Demon Lord. The PCs are dealing his minions currently, including a cult of his.
Gavmania wrote: Natural attacks also begin to suffer at this time against opponents with DR. A simple DR 10/Silver is easy to overcome by a weapon wielder - not so a natural attacker. As they get higher level, the likelihood of meeting an opponent with significant DR increases, further nerfing the Natural Attacker. Doesn't a +3 AoMF do it?
That said, that sounds like "He obliterates anything without natural DR (aka most classed enemies) and struggles against stuff with natural DR (aka stuff like demons)" which doesn't seem amazing.
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