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on my pcs found a chest of feather tokens and inside I made the mistake of including feather token siege tower. I thought it was just gold for the party until they got to the final boss of the adventure. They overlooked a giant pit with a Minotaur inside of it. The pc who had the token had the great idea of summoning it and dropping it onto the boss. I had no idea what to do damage wise so I had the tower 'pin' the minotaur until they got down there and it got up and started to attack. After the session the guy who made the act approached me and said "that tower should have done some damage, I mean it takes 20 people to run it according to the d20 site" and I said I would look into it. I have no idea where to start. He said he's gonna make a character based on dropping siege towers on monsters and im not sure how to GM it without taking the fun away from the player. help?
Sounds like your player is looking to beat the game instead of adventure and have fun. What's the fun of throwing a tower on every bad guy to crush them instead of fighting? What's the incentive for players to improve fighting ability? First, I would talk to the player and tell them how it would take a lot of fun out of the game. Fun for you because now all the cool encounters are reduced to "drop a tower on it" and less fun for the others because they don't get to do fun combat stuff. Otherwise, make those tokens hard to come by. Every time he wanted to buy one, the magic shop was all out. That's one thing I don;t like about the newer versions of the game. Want a specific magic item? Don't want to waste time adventuring for it? Go buy it. Granted, when you spent XP's to make magic items, it was a pain, but at least there wasn't the potential for the market to be flooded with +1 swords. You found a magic sword and it was Special.
Also, a tower would do a bunch of damage. Depending on how he was pinned, he may even suffocate.
Oh! House rule that any magic that increases size will only fill the allowable space. That includes brushing up against a person. You can pin someone against the wall, but it won't squish them against it. If you drop in on them, it moves to fill the space next to them. Problem solved.
You know, if one of my players tried dropping a tower into a pit with a tight enough fit to make it hard or impossible to get out of the way, I would, at the very least, have a chance that the tower got stuck partway down, perhaps providing a ladder for the minotaur's escape from the pit. I might well let it work the first time, it is a clever and rather fun idea. Trying it again is tiresome. Once you are a wit, twice you are a half-wit.
Bob, we politely disagree with your evaluation.
An automobile, without wheels preventing it from reaching the ground, considerably lighter than a tower, falling less than 3 feet off of jack stands crushes and kills the mechanic underneath it. I remember the San Francisco quake, one of my coworker's pickup was flattened by a chunk of concrete that couldn't have fallen more than 60 feet (the height of the building).
I rather expect you are mis-applying the rules, but even if you aren't, the weight of a bloody tower even if you slowly and carefully on something, slowly and carefully, brick by heavy brick, will crush most things significantly smaller than said tower.
Bob3's right on the rules. The rules should perhaps be different, but that's what they are for falling objects, and they're not misapplied above.
You can justify it as many other things which should kill people (falling off a high-rise, big doses of poison, a bite from a dragon) don't kill mid+ level characters in PF. Though it does seem low. Or you can do as Daw would and allow it to work, once, ignoring the rules.
... the weight of a bloody tower even if you slowly and carefully on something, slowly and carefully, brick by heavy brick, will crush most things significantly smaller than said tower.
Siege Tower: This device is a massive wooden tower on wheels or rollers that can be rolled up against a wall to allow attackers to scale the tower and thus get to the top of the wall with cover. The wooden walls are usually 1 foot thick.
A typical siege tower takes up a space 15 feet across. The creatures inside push it at a base land speed of 10 feet (and a siege tower can’t run). The eight creatures pushing on the ground floor have total cover, and those on higher floors get improved cover and can fire through arrow slits.
Wooden siege tower not stone castle tower.
However, I agree that it should do more damage than described. However, that is the game rules. The game rules are not terribly realistic. No one should be able to punch a rhino to death, but it isn't even all that difficult by the rules.
OK, the falling objects rules were followed accurately, however ridiculous the results are. This said, looking at the rules for siege towers.
Siege Tower: A wooden gallery of stout construction, a siege tower consists of a tall protective shell with a roof section. The lower story of the tower contains the crew members who propel the tower, and provides total cover to those within. A siege tower with the broken condition moves at half speed. If a siege tower is destroyed, the entire tower collapses. Treat this as a cave-in (Core Rulebook 415).
Perhaps in this situation using the cave-in rules might be more accurate.
Cave-Ins and Collapses (CR 8)]
Characters in the bury zone of a cave-in take 8d6 points of damage, or half that amount if they make a DC 15 Reflex save. They are subsequently buried. Characters in the slide zone take 3d6 points of damage, or no damage at all if they make a DC 15 Reflex save. Characters in the slide zone who fail their saves are buried.Characters take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage per minute while buried. If such a character falls unconscious, he must make a DC 15 Constitution check each minute. If it fails, he takes 1d6 points of lethal damage each minute until freed or dead.
Characters who aren't buried can dig out their friends. In 1 minute, using only her hands, a character can clear rocks and debris equal to five times her heavy load limit. The amount of loose stone that fills a 5-foot-by-5-foot area weighs 1 ton (2,000 pounds). Armed with an appropriate tool, such as a pick, crowbar, or shovel, a digger can clear loose stone twice as quickly as by hand. A buried character can attempt to free himself with a DC 25 Strength check.
Considering some of the amazingly stupid things that happen when you combine environmental effects with the Hit Point system, or almost anything at all with the Hit Point system, ..........
Sorry about that BBB.
The hit point system isn't actually a reflection of how tough you are, though you get a bonus from CON. It increases with experience to reflect the character getting better at rolling with the punches or moving at just the right time to take a less serious hit. I agree, it's not really that realistic considering, if a fighter says, "I stand there and let him hit me" he still won't take any more damage... by the rules. But.... it's a Fantasy game that we don't play for the realism. That said, there needs to be SOME realism or else it's completely alien and hard to immerse yourself into.
I do think, if you must go by the rulebook instead of common sense, the cave-in rule is the way to go. The tower would more than likely collapse, anyway, considering it's not built for the stress of being dropped. Plus, you'd have a hard time breathing with several thousand pounds of weight laying on top of you. I would think you would take damage quicker than that, but again... It's fantasy.
Bob bob bob's evaluation by the rules is correct.
As to the argument whether falling objects should do more damage...that's something people will disagree on. I say no, because dropping objects on enemies isn't "fun" for me. It's a way to win, but it's not fun.
When you're the GM, sometimes you have to look at the rules as written and say, "No, that's dumb. It's going to work like this..."
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Dropped objects easily killing someone brings up questions...like why the PCs don't get killed while walking outside by someone doing a similar trick.
I usually like to point out to players that anything they do, can be done against them. On something like this it would usually convince them to run it by the rules. Since running it more harshly could quickly and easily result in PC death.
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I usually like to point out to players that anything they do, can be done against them.
I make that speech any time my players seriously start to discuss a "scry-and-fry."
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And remind the party rogue has a really bad will save.
If the minotaur had a shovel of excavation, then they should have it now. Also, I would have weakened the minotaur by 20 hit points, and ten movement rate because he lost several of his toes.
The OP said something about the minotaur freeing themselves from being pinned under all that. I thought that might require a special item or something. Not sure why you brought Rapunzel into it.
OK, the picture in the Bestiary has hooves.
It's a siege tower, on wheels.
While it is not specifically mentioned in the core rulebook, it is still made with major creation. If it was from a bag of beans, yes it would be anchored in the ground. The listing doesn't say how it is activated. The OP/GM would have to tell us how it functions.
I made the wrong assumption that everyone understood I was posting about how I would rule it. I saw no other way to post on this topic.