Having levels in Brawler/Monk qualifies your fists as both natural and manufactured weapons.
Should they be polymorphed into a say 4-Armed Gargoyle with 4 claws, would these claws in turn qualify as both natural and manufactued weapons? What about the bite and gore attack?
Would their unarmed damage progression apply to the polymorphed form? Getting at least 4x4d8 full BAB attacks (at lvl 20) would be quite something. With weapon focus claws and feral combat training you could get it up to 5 with unchained flurry and quite frankly, I have no idea how it would interact with regular flurry (5 BAB-2, -7, 12, -17?).
With a wand of Vine Strike (requires natural weapons) and a wand of Sense Vitals (CL15, requires manufactured weapons) he could get an additional d6 damage and entangling attacks and possibly 5d6 sneak attack...so maybe monk of the mantis or snakebite striker archetypes.
If you built more into a DEX build, slashing grace could be helpful...foregoing the flurry though and it wouldn't apply to gore or bite.
Some obvious errors I missed?
1. No, unless they get the version of Feral Combat Training before it was nerfed.
2. As 1.
...A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons...
Quick answer; There is a difference between "Unarmed Strikes" and "Natural Weapons".
A monks unarmed strikes count as manufactured weapons but his natural attacks (if he has any) do not.If you transform into a 4-Armed Gargoyle, you would have 1 "Unarmed Strike" (2 if you used TWF or Flurry), and 4 Natural Claw attacks.
The Unarmed Damage progression would apply to the monks unarmed strikes but it would not affect their natural attacks.
Also note; Feral Combat Training only allows Natural Weapons to count as Unarmed Strikes for the purposes of " the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite", and for Flurrying. So Unarmed Damage Progression is out :(
Also note; Vine Strike affects Unarmed Strikes, so you could still apply both of those to your fists, but only vine strike to your claw attacks.
Edit: I should also point out to you that getting extra arms somehow does not give you extra off-hand attacks.
Regardless of the number of hands you have, you only get 1 main hand attack and 1 off-hand attack. Your other 2 arms just sit there uselessly. You can get the Multiattack monster feat to increase this, however its wording is not that clear :/
Also note;
A monk’s attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full.
With the 4-armed gargoyle used above, note that you could make your unarmed strikes with your feet, thrus leaving your hands free to make the claw attacks as well. Now you add in Feral Combat Training and you can even tack them onto a Flurry of Blows :)
Besides, doesn't brawler say (specifically) you can't use with nat weapons?
Besides, doesn't brawler say (specifically) you can't use with nat weapons?
Rules as Written, you can only use Feral Combat Training with a Monks Flurry of Blows.
The Brawlers Fury is basically the "Monks Flurry but simpler" but because of the difference in wording, you cant use Feral Combat Training with it.However, the Brawler is basically half of a Monk, and designed off of the Monk, so it is not much of a stretch for a GM to allow "Brawler Flurry" to count as "Monk Flurry".
Anyone got the text of un-nerfed feral combat training? Feral Combat Training as I found it on d20pfsrd allows flurry of blows with natural weapons.
@Perfect Tommy
Wouldn't feral combat training override that?
@Gobo Horde
Doesn't feral weapon training allow a monk/brawler to use natural weapons as unarmed strikes?
edit:
Here's how I understood Feral Combat Training
Select a natural weapon you can use, for this example claws. You can treat those as if they were unarmed strikes.
Though I guess the rules are more specific than that in that it only allows you to use feats with it that depend on improved unarmed strike...
Such as class feats...like the monks and brawlers Unarmed Strike. Though they give improved unarmed strike but they arguably also depend on it.
@Gobo Horde
Doesn't feral weapon training allow a monk/brawler to use natural weapons as unarmed strikes?
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite.
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
It specifically says "If you are a monk" and "flurry of blows class feature".
The Brawler does have Martial Training, "brawler counts her total brawler levels as both fighter levels and monk levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats", so the first one is satisfied.However Brawlers get "Brawlers Fury" which is named differently and written (slightly) differently then the Monks Flurry of Blows.
They are very similar and a GM could easily rule that they both do qualify, but Technically they are different.
Ask the Fighter about his Weapon Training feature and Archetypes to get another, and greater, example of this :/
You can't use Gloves of Dueling with a Polearm Master, because it is "Polearm Training", not "Weapon Training".
edit:
Here's how I understood Feral Combat Training
Select a natural weapon you can use, for this example claws. You can treat those as if they were unarmed strikes.
Though I guess the rules are more specific than that in that it only allows you to use feats with it that depend on improved unarmed strike...Such as class feats...like the monks and brawlers Unarmed Strike. Though they give improved unarmed strike but they arguably also depend on it.
Almost right, but not quite :)
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite.
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
It gives you 2 abilities.
you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite.
So Crane Style requires Imp Unarmed Strike, so you could apply it to a claw.
you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
So you can use your Claw as a part of a Flurry, in place of a punch, for instance.
Specifically, it applies unarmed strike feats to your natural attacks and allows you to flurry with them.
Improved Unarmed Strike is a feat.
Unarmed Strike is a class feature that also gives you the above feat. You cannot give this to a claw using Feral Combat Training because it, itself is not a feat .
Hex Strike is a feat that has Imp Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, so you could use a claw with this feat.
Thanks for the clarification.
I repeat: A brawler cannot use his flurry ability with natural weapons.
Starting at 2nd level, a brawler can make a brawler’s flurry as a full-attack action. When doing so, a brawler has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when attacking with any combination of unarmed strikes, weapons from the close fighter weapon group, or weapons with the “monk” special feature. She does not need to use two different weapons to use this ability.
A brawler applies her full Strength modifier to her damage rolls for all attacks made with brawler’s flurry, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand weapon or a weapon wielded in both hands. A brawler can substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of brawler’s flurry. A brawler with natural weapons can’t use such weapons as part of brawler’s flurry, nor can she make natural weapon attacks in addition to her brawler’s flurry attacks.
I know. It has the same wording as the monk.
It is the general rule.
Feral Combat Training specifically states that you can ignore that rule for one natural weapon, so it would override it.
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
So IF you have this feat, then you can flurry with a claw.
Ascetic Form
Martial VersatilitySeems to work. Have to pick a monk weapon for Ascetic Style that is also in the group you want to use. Unarmed Strike is in Monk, Close, and NATURAL.
Your spending 4 feats vs Feral Combat Trainings 2, and its taking up your stance, but it works out to old-school FCT for all natural weapons.
Thanks, how would a full combat round look like?
Just straight up 6 attacks, 4 of which benefit from all the monk benefits or 5 with flurry and 2 more regular natural attacks?For Brawler or monk it would be 5 BAB-2, -7, 12, -17 and 2 natural attacks secondary or regular? And I need to find out how Master of Many Styles works.
To the building lab.
Edit: Has to be brawler I guess.
This provisional build is based on Variant Multiclassing Monk for the -2 Unarmed Damage progression. It tries to be as self reliant as possible when it comes to supporting spells which is why it takes forever to get to the sweet spot.
Since I'm not assuming that VMC Monk counts for monk levels, it takes a while to get all the necessary feats.
Magical Knack some other trait, probably the one that gives +1 to monk attacks and damage.
1
Improved Initiative
Dragonheir Scion 1(Green Dragon)
Bonus Feat, Arcane Strike (swift action +1dmg +1dmg/5CL to all weapons)
Wizard 2-6 (full CL)
3
Unarmed Strike (Damage progession -2, d6)
5
Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
6 (d8)
Monstrous Physique I (Gargoyle)
Eldritch Knight 7-16 (full CL)
Bonus Feat (Ascetic Style)
7
Evasion
9
Monstrous Physique II (4 Armed Gargoyle)
Ascetic Form
10 (d10)
11
Ki Pool (-2 progression)
Bonus Feat (Martial Versatility, Claws)
It takes a while to get to martial versatility and without flurry either but at least you don't depend on others for the polymorph.
So at this point the 4 armed gargoyle (large) would do 2d8 -instead of d6- with 4 of his claws, an additional 3 from Arcane Strike, another d6 from Vine Strike and possibly 3d6 from Sense Vitals.
While it's important to have enough intelligence to cast all your needed spells, intelligence isn't that important to this build. BAB at lvl 11 would be 8.
Race has to be somewhat human, so Human, Half-Elf, Half-Ork or pass for Human Tiefling are some good choices.
I'd recommend Half-Elf for Paragon Surge and earlier entry to Martial Versatility.
A stronger variation would be straight up Brawler (or at least 4 to qualify for fighter) and the rest monk (that's assuming that brawler and monk unarmed damage progression stack). By the way, would damage progression of VMC monk stack with Brawler? Now that would be something. Getting to whatever value awaits at 38...
Thanks, how would a full combat round look like?
Just straight up 6 attacks, 4 of which benefit from all the monk benefits or 5 with flurry and 2 more regular natural attacks?
Unfortunately you cant use natural attacks in addition to flurry. Feral Combat Training lets you use a Natural attack as part of a flurry, but not in addition to; the devs really don't want you stacking extra attacks onto flurry of blows