Owner - D20 Hobbies
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There are several dev explainations that chaining one ability to modify another to allow a third isn’t how things are designed to work.
So yes it’s a monk weapon but monk weapons are not two handed (quarter staff is but it’s a double). So while it’s monk it’s not a one handed or light. There was one FAQ (that I can’t remrmber) that explained a similar concept. It was using something that modified what you could do with an ability and another that let you use the ability. The attempt was to use the ability in the new way to get the alternative results. You couldn’t.
The character above can flurry with a greatsword because of Crusader's Flurry. Does the greatsword for this character counts as a monk special weapon so that it can be used in place of a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon for granted swashbuckler class features and deeds?
*Shrug* I don't see any reason why it wouldn't. It works with a bo staff, a staff, a 7 branch sword, monk spade, Sansetsukon and Tiger fork; all 2 handed weapons and some are even B. For instance, Sansetsukon: 2 handed and B...
EDITED: ninja'd (what I get for eating and typing)
I do think transitive properties can get a little dicey as you stack steps up. There should be some stacking rules like with size increases. Also there are a number of solid 2h monk weapons that are on par with a GreatSword:
Seven Branched Sword is a 2hand monk sword that would work. It's ability to make targets flat-footed ads some serious power to certain builds.
If you want the crit range of a Great Sword there is the Three Sectioned Staff
There are even a couple pole arms:
Monk Spade
Tiger Fork
That being said, since there are already lots of 2 hand weapons that work with a Kata Master, I see no reason a Great Sword would not work if you also have Crusader Flurry. I also get it. There are few things as fun as having a Great Sword that is used as elegantly as a rapier.
There are several dev explainations that chaining one ability to modify another to allow a third isn’t how things are designed to work.Pretty sure there's not a Design Team post or FAQ on this matter saying that though. So as of now chaining abilities like that is perfectly fine.
I agree. The Devs have reversed their thought on things multiple times [SLA's as spells, monks flurry, 1/2 elf-orc and prerequisites, ect] on official statements so I have a hard time seeing an unofficial statement as having much weight. The only official statement on this is that posts are unofficial unless stated otherwise. ;)
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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There are several dev explainations that chaining one ability to modify another to allow a third isn’t how things are designed to work.Pretty sure there's not a Design Team post or FAQ on this matter saying that though. So as of now chaining abilities like that is perfectly fine.
There is one that FAQ says no, at least I remember one. I can’t think of what it was right now. I believe it was AoO use ability or some other resource ability use.
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There is one that FAQ says no, at least I remember one. I can’t think of what it was right now. I believe it was AoO use ability or some other resource ability use.There are several dev explainations that chaining one ability to modify another to allow a third isn’t how things are designed to work.Pretty sure there's not a Design Team post or FAQ on this matter saying that though. So as of now chaining abilities like that is perfectly fine.
LOL Well we're told FAQ's are very narrow and only ever cover exactly what the FAQ is about. Except for those time we're expected to extrapolate from it of course. :P
To summarize, we never know the impact of a FAQ on other questions until a DEV says it's relevant or not.
It would be good to know what FAQ is being referenced to understand its potential relevance. I have never seen one like it.
age 94 Ultimate Combat:
Crusader’s Flurry
You learned to use your deity’s favored weapon as part of your martial arts form.
Prerequisites: Channel energy class feature, flurry of blows class feature, Weapon Focus with your deity’s favored melee weapon.
Benefit: You can use your deity’s favored weapon as if it were a monk weapon.Page 105 ACG:
Monk - Kata Master archetype says:
A kata master can use an unarmed strike or monk special weapon in place of a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon for granted swashbuckler class features and deeds.The following is the pertinent information about a character to which this question may apply.
Classes: 1st level bloodrager, 1st level kata master monk, 1st level cleric of Smiad (Smiad's favored weapon is the greatsword.)
Feats: weapon focus greatsword, crusader's flurryThe character above can flurry with a greatsword because of Crusader's Flurry. Does the greatsword for this character counts as a monk special weapon so that it can be used in place of a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon for granted swashbuckler class features and deeds?
A crusader can flurry with his god's weapon as part as if it were a monk weapon.
A Kata Master can use his monk weapon for swashbuckler feats.
A crusader can flurry with it as if it were a monk's weapon - but that does not make it a monks weapon for other things such as stunning fists, elemental fists etc.
Further, even though the crusader can flurry with it, there is no mention of turning it into a 1h or light weapon.
Flurry with <> "is". No, it cannot be used with swashbuckler feats.
Regardless of the argument, there would be enough table variation that this would not be a tactic to rely upon.
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Further, even though the crusader can flurry with it, there is no mention of turning it into a "1h or light weapon".
Why would 1h or light weapon matter? Kata Master allows for bo staff, a staff, a 7 branch sword, monk spade, Sansetsukon and Tiger fork so the ability makes the "1h or light weapon" moot: "A kata master can use an unarmed strike or monk special weapon in place of...". It's in black and white that you use "a monk weapon" instead of the normal weapon used: if that wasn't the case, the Kata Master feature does nothing as those weapons would ALREADY qualify for "swashbuckler class features and deeds".
Note: Crusader’s Flurry DOESN'T grant the ability to flurry with the weapon. It grants the weapon the monk weapon special quality and THAT grants the ability to flurry: it's much like granting fast heal and that heals you.
Note: Kata Master ability looks for the monk weapon special feature, the same thing Crusader’s Flurry grants the weapon.
Note: The Kata Master ability allows use of non-standard weapons INSTEAD of the normal "light or one-handed piercing melee weapon".
So I don't see a legal/RAW reason this should trigger table variation: It's pretty much 1 + 1 = 2. So far the people in this thread that have said it wouldn't work are James Risner and you:
James mentions some undisclosed super secret posts about "chaining" and "isn’t how things are designed to work." Even assuming those posts exist, there is no evidence that the 'devs' plan to step in and rule it illegal. Unexpected doesn't equal illegal.
You didn't come to the correct reading of the abilities in question:
Crusader’s Flurry grants a special feature to the weapon, full stop: If it's a monk weapon for flurry, it's a monk weapon for anything looking for it. The feat doesn't directly mention monk's flurry.
Kata Master: The point of the feature is to use non-standard weapons with the swashbuckler class features and deeds. So examining the weapon as if it had the standard weapon requirement is exactly the opposite of what the feature does.
So the the total reasons in this thread why it doesn't work are 'but this unofficial post I saw somewhere says dev's didn't expect it to work that way' and 'if you read the abilities wrong it doesn't work'. That not table variation but houseruling.
Seems strong but okay I'm persuaded
Seems strong but okay I'm persuaded
The base Kata Master allows for a Seven-branched sword [1d10, x3] or a Sansetsukon [1d10, 19-20/x2]. So you're trading a dip in another class and a feat for a single bump in damage plus you aren't getting any of the really good deeds from kata master. You'd have multi-class again to gain Precise Strike, but at that point, you're -2 damage from levels in other classes: At that point of damage gained from greatsword is lost to Precise Strike being lower.
It seems fairly balance to me. Am I missing something? I'm not a big swashbuckler fan, so maybe I didn't catch something that makes it better than it seems?