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Jump jet.
You can activate jump jets as part of a move action in order to fly during your movement. You can fly up to 30 feet (average maneuverability) with a maximum height of 10 feet, or you can fly up to 20 feet straight up. You must land at the end of your move action.
Does this mean that the fly movement is on top of my move? So if my land speed is 25, with this I can move 55? Looking for RAW please
This is a good question...
I assumed it replaced your move speed... A good choice for someone slowed down by heavy armor, or to quickly scale relatively short heights. Like if you're stuck in melee, and need to do be on top of a nearby building.
Still provides reason enough to take it.
RAW "as part of a move action, you can..." means you can do a normal move action AND use the Jump jets.
Otherwise it would be written "as a move action, you can..."
So based on this, you can move your normal speed AND use you Jump Jet as a move action (so a normal human can move 30 feet and then jump another 30 feet for a total of 60 feet in one move action).
RAW "as part of a move action, you can..." means you can do a normal move action AND use the Jump jets.
Otherwise it would be written "as a move action, you can..."So based on this, you can move your normal speed AND use you Jump Jet as a move action (so a normal human can move 30 feet and then jump another 30 feet for a total of 60 feet in one move action).
"You can activate jump jets as part of a move action in order to fly during your movement."
I'd say that the frist part says you can ACTIVATE as part of a move. The end of the sentence says you can fly DURING your movement which would suggest you can fly when you move, so without thinking what would be nice or cool I'd say you can move your max movement but some of that can be flying as long as it is in the limits stated.
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Tryn not sure it's so cut and dry just not sure look at jump "As part of a move action, you can use Athletics to horizontally or vertically jump a distance no greater than your remaining amount of movement" jump jets do not say up-to that's true but do say "You can activate jump jets as part of a move action in order to fly during your movement"
Man, this is seriously poorly worded. I can easily see the merits for both arguments and neither has a clear advantage.
At the end of the day, the part that swings me in favor of jump jets being in addition to movement is the lack of the line "up to a distance no greater than your remaining amount of movement." It's a line they used in athletics to restrict the distance you can jump, so by not using that wording here and by calling it "part" of your move action, it seems to learn towards bonus movement.
On the other hand, even if the RAW leans towards bonus movement, I highly doubt that's the RAI. A 1k item that adds 30 ft of extra movement is insanely good. Considering speed suspension adds 10 ft to your land speed for 1.9, or jetpack giving you a 30 ft fly speed for 3.1k, the price to distance ratio seems way off.
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Agree it's hard to figure why I went down the middle in my (fake ruling) and is it 30 movement?unless I'm reading it wrong it's 30 with a maximum of 10 high. Do you pay for that 10 feet so 20 across 10 up? Even than that's the same as 40 feet yes? Or is it 10 across and 10 up?
To make matters even more fun jump Jets Clearly say You must land at the end of your movement so what's the point in the ability to jump 20 ft straight up? Unless they count falling 20 feet as Landing >_>
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Man, this is seriously poorly worded. I can easily see the merits for both arguments and neither has a clear advantage.
At the end of the day, the part that swings me in favor of jump jets being in addition to movement is the lack of the line "up to a distance no greater than your remaining amount of movement." It's a line they used in athletics to restrict the distance you can jump, so by not using that wording here and by calling it "part" of your move action, it seems to learn towards bonus movement.
On the other hand, even if the RAW leans towards bonus movement, I highly doubt that's the RAI. A 1k item that adds 30 ft of extra movement is insanely good.
Keep in mind that it is usable 10 times, yes you can recharge or change the battery,but it has a limit
Considering speed suspension adds 10 ft to your land speed for 1.9, or jetpack giving you a 30 ft fly speed for 3.1k, the price to distance ratio seems way off.
Well we got infrared armor upgrade (200cr) and darkvision augmentation (1750cr) the price difference is big for pretty much the same thing, and no limitation
Well we got infrared armor upgrade (200cr) and darkvision augmentation (1750cr) the price difference is big for pretty much the same thing, and no limitation
The upgrade only works while wearing armor and takes up a precious armor slot.
The augmentation always works and uses the, much less-versatile, eyes slot.
Actually in the book, jump Jets says " as a move action"... Not "as part of a move action". So it replaced your movement, I'm pretty sure
Not in the PDF copy I'm looking at. Literally just double checked the copy I have on my phone. It says as a move action. Pg 77 "it can use these Jets to jump 30 feet as a move action..." I screen shot it, but don't think I can pay it directly on the forum.
Not in the PDF copy I'm looking at. Literally just double checked the copy I have on my phone. It says as a move action. Pg 77 "it can use these Jets to jump 30 feet as a move action..." I screen shot it, but don't think I can pay it directly on the forum.
Page 77 is the Mechanic's Drone Mod jump jets which are completely different from the Armor Upgrade jump jets on page 206-207.
The armor upgrade one, copy and pasted is:
You can activate jump jets as part of a move action in order to fly during your movement. You can fly up to 30 feet (average maneuverability) with a maximum height of 10 feet, or you can fly up to 20 feet straight up. You must land at the end of your move action. Jump jets can’t lift you if you’re encumbered.
This upgrade can be installed only in light or heavy armor.
As far as I can tell its worded that way because otherwise it would be a standard action to activate the jumpjets (which it is for a forcepack or a jetpack), making them rather useless (i.e. standard action to activate, move action to use the fly speed, done with turn).
What happens is you take the Move your speed action, activate the jump jets, and now you can choose to move any of your speeds (including your newly granted fly speed). How mixing different speeds (i.e. a fly speed and a land speed) works is up to your GM, as it is not clear to me that is explained in the rules. However, if I were GM'ing, I would certainly limit your total movement to at least your highest speed - no combining two different ones to get more. Otherwise Climbing Suckers are better than a Standard Speed Suspension.
Gotcha, my bad
As far as I can tell its worded that way because otherwise it would be a standard action to activate the jumpjets (which it is for a forcepack or a jetpack), making them rather useless (i.e. standard action to activate, move action to use the fly speed, done with turn).
Um, no. It doesn't cost any action to activate force pack or jet packs. Those upgrades just straight up grant you a fly speed. Nowhere does it say it costs a standard action. If an upgrade costs any action to activate, it's specifically stated in the upgrade's description. There's no action cost in the descriptions for those items. Thy just grant fly speed, to be used with the normal movement rules.
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Page 244 of the CRB, under the Tactical Rules section states:
Activate an Item
Many technological and magic items, such as a cybernetic hand,
don’t need to be activated. Certain items, however, do need to be
activated to have an effect. Unless otherwise noted, activating
such an item is a standard action.
Emphasis mine.
Once you've turned it on, I agree it runs continuously, but to go from off to on (activating it) is a standard action. They have to explicitly call out shifting from cruise mode to normal mode as a standard because that normally wouldn't be an additional activation, but rather just using it in a different way (like using your lands speed to walk or run).
Can you point me to the rules text that states it is not a standard action to activate Jetpacks and Forcepacks (or armor upgrades in general) which would satisfy the "Unless otherwise noted" clause?
Clearly armor upgrades that don't use charges don't need to be activated (per the above quoted text), but how do you tell if you are using charges for an armor upgrade or not if you don't take some kind of action to turn it on or off?
I consider this action economy to be the advantage of Jump Jets and Defy Gravity, which is why some people might want them - for combat on the ground that requires the ability to bypass obstacles quickly.
Page 244 of the CRB, under the Tactical Rules section states:
Activate an Item
Many technological and magic items, such as a cybernetic hand,
don’t need to be activated. Certain items, however, do need to be
activated to have an effect. Unless otherwise noted, activating
such an item is a standard action.Emphasis mine.
Once you've turned it on, I agree it runs continuously, but to go from off to on (activating it) is a standard action. They have to explicitly call out shifting from cruise mode to normal mode as a standard because that normally wouldn't be an additional activation, but rather just using it in a different way (like using your lands speed to walk or run).
Can you point me to the rules text that states it is not a standard action to activate Jetpacks and Forcepacks (or armor upgrades in general) which would satisfy the "Unless otherwise noted" clause?
Clearly armor upgrades that don't use charges don't need to be activated (per the above quoted text), but how do you tell if you are using charges for an armor upgrade or not if you don't take some kind of action to turn it on or off?I consider this action economy to be the advantage of Jump Jets and Defy Gravity, which is why some people might want them - for combat on the ground that requires the ability to bypass obstacles quickly.
I can't find a block of text that specifically excludes armor upgrades from the item activation rule (outside the text in the passage you provided that clearly states not all items require activation to function), but I don't think that rule applies to armor upgrade simply based on how the activation cost is worded for all armor upgrades.
Every armor upgrade that can be activated has a specific line of text defining what action cost it is to activate. If an upgrade doesn't need to be activated, it has no action cost.
Jump Jets and Force Jets don't activate. They passively grant a fly speed. The battery cost doesn't somehow force it to have an activation.
The rule you listed is for using items that need to be activated, with a line specifically noting that "many items don't need to be activated". The word 'activate' never come up in the description for jet packs, and when the devs have been clear about defining the activation costs for every armor upgrade that has one, it seems very obvious that jet packs fall into that set of items that don't require activation at all. Thus no standard action is required, ever.
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I can't find a block of text that specifically excludes armor upgrades from the item activation rule (outside the text in the passage you provided that clearly states not all items require activation to function), but I don't think that rule applies to armor upgrade simply based on how the activation cost is worded for all armor upgrades.
Every armor upgrade that can be activated has a specific line of text defining what action cost it is to activate. If an upgrade doesn't need to be activated, it has no action cost.
Jump Jets and Force Jets don't activate. They passively grant a fly speed. The battery cost doesn't somehow force it to have an activation.
The rule you listed is for using items that need to be activated, with a line specifically noting that "many items don't need to be activated". The word 'activate' never come up in the description for jet packs, and when the devs have been clear about defining the activation costs for every armor upgrade that has one, it seems very obvious that jet packs fall into that set of items that don't require activation at all. Thus no standard action is required, ever.
I'm assuming you meant to write Jetpack and Forcepack, as Jump Jets do explicitly use the term activate in their rules text.
With that assumption, I'm still going to have to disagree.
On page 205, it describes usage for armor upgrades:
Usage
This entry lists how many charges are consumed when the
armor upgrade is used. This might be per activation or a certain
duration. If an armor upgrade uses a certain number of charges
over an interval, the upgrade’s abilities can be shut off before that
amount of time has passed, but it still uses charges for the full
interval. For instance, an upgrade that uses charges at a rate of 2
per round would still use 2 charges if activated for half a round.
There, the term activated and activation is used explicitly and in reference to all armor upgrades that use charges. Which Jetpack is one of. Swap in Jetpack for upgrade in the last sentence.
"For instance, an upgrade Jetpack that uses charges at a rate of 2 per round wound still use 2 charges if activated for half a round."
As an aside, the only two armor upgrades in the book that use 2 charges per round are the Jetpack and Forcepack.
That rules text makes it clear items which use charges per round (like a Jetpack) must be activated, and then continue to use charges until stopped. The Jetpack rules do not list an activation action, so it defaults to standard.
Even in the best interpretation for your stance, where you assume the first half of the rules which states items like a Polyhand don't require an action to activate apply to Jetpacks, then it is left of to the GM, which means we'll need clarification for Starfinder Society play.
However, I personally don't believe its one of those types of items because it is not passive. It uses charges and thus cannot be on all the time.
Specific trumps general.
There is no specific text in jetpacks or forcepacks that mentions activation, nor is there any rule that states an item using charges must spend actions to activate.
You are using two general rules, one that explicitly states it doesn't apply to all items, and the other that explicitly states it applies to duration (like jetpacks that give you fly speed per round, not per activation) or activation and are deciding, based on nothing more than your own interpretation that because it uses charges, Jetpacks and Forcepacks must be an activation item.
Based on RAW and RAI I don't see your interpretation holding up.
There is nothing in RAW that dictations any items which consume charges must be activated with an action, and nothing in the armor upgrade rules to indicate that any upgrade with no explicit action cost automatically defaults to the 'standard action activation' rule.
As for RAI, it seems ridiculous to assume that the devs intended players to slap standard action activation on items which provide passive bonuses. Putting a standard action on Jetpacks and Forcepacks breaks them, making them and any other passive item a complete waste of money if the player must spend a standard to access its passive bonus.
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As for RAI, it seems ridiculous to assume that the devs intended players to slap standard action activation on items which provide passive bonuses.
The armor's passive environmental protections are a standard action to activate (page 196). Getting the passive strength bonus from Powered armor requires you turn the armor on, a standard action (page 203).
Augmentations which require some form of control also require a standard action to activate unless otherwise noted (page 208). Turning on or off your passive Darkvision capacitors is a standard action. It doesn't say it on page 209, but it implies it since you can choose to have it not to emit ultraviolet lasers (useful when hiding in the dark from someone with a Wide-spectrum Ocular implant). The rules on page 208 make it clear its a standard action to turn on or off your augmentations which have some form of active control.
Anyways, there are a number of examples in Starfinder where it is a standard action to turn and off a passive benefit. If you want to go back to Pathfinder, there are plenty of cases where that is true as well. For example, boots of flying are a standard action to start flying. Actually, now that I think about it, all magical methods of flying I can remember in Pathfinder were standard action to activate.
I personally don't think anything breaks if it takes a Standard action to turn your Jetpack on. It stays on for the duration, you keep spending charges until you turn it off, gaining the passive benefit, no need for further standard actions until you turn it off. Its one standard action in an entire fight (no different than casting Flight really). Certainly makes Jump Jets and Defy Gravity more worthwhile in comparison.
Anyways, we probably should setup a FAQ candidate thread, we are clearly reading the rules text differently. And as you point out, it clearly makes a significant difference to effectiveness. I'd prefer to get that ruled on before most SFS characters get to 4th level.
Notice in the examples you gave, there are specific rules requiring standard actions in place for those items.
There's no such rule, either in the description for jetpacks or the more general rule for armor upgrades, that requires the standard action item activation rule be applied.
The crux of your argument is that jetpacks and forcepacks fall under the subset of items that require standard actions to activate. However, because that standard action rule is so vague (many don't require activation, but some do and unless otherwise noted it's a standard) and there's no indication that jetpacks must be activated at all (in the gameplay sense of the word activate), you can't just assume they do. Especially when every other armor upgrade provides very clear rules about action activation costs in the upgrade description when necessary.
Now maybe I was too presumptuous when I assumed it was RAI that the items work that way. Maybe jetpacks and forcepacks are supposed to be much less useful in combat than I assumed. However, since nothing in the armor augment rules or the jetpack description demand active activation by the player, I strongly feel that you're in house-rule territory if you require players to spend actions turning them on.
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Hiruma Kai's reasoning hits much more on target than yours, McMan. Sorry, but I think some augmentations really are a bit bad if not activated before entering combat or otherwise needed.
You say that specific trumps the general, but cite nothing specific. The lack of reinforcement for the general under "jetpacks" is as unspecific as it can get. You need an actual contradicting statement, not a hope that jetpacks are useful.
Hiruma established that standard action activation was typical, so why would you think that augmentations that run off charges wouldn't be activated by standard actions? Obviously they need to be activated because their charges are on a timer, just like forcefields use charges even on rounds you don't get hit. So what action is it to activate the timer and start using charges? Well, the default is a standard action therefore...until you find a citation that says otherwise. Declaring there's wiggle room doesn't cut it.
Sorry, I think you are much further from making your case than your confidence suggests.
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Agree Peter halvorson. That said I do hope it's a additional effect. So my operative yskone can move 30 feet jump up 10 more do a flip activate jump boots doing a double jump to sail 20 more feet across the room and 10 more up. Landing on the 20foot High catwalk next to the slackjawed goblin who I than start stabbing with my standard action. (what can a say double jump is on my starfinder bucket list)