So, say a magus attacks a shaken enemy with spellstrike through a cruel weapon, and the spell being channeled into the strike requires a saving throw. Hitting a shaken enemy with a cruel weapon automatically makes it sickened, which applies a -2 penalty to saving throws. Would the enemy have that sickened penalty on the save he needs to make against the spell being delivered from that same attack?
(More specific example: I am playing a myrmidarch magus with an evolved mauler familiar. On my turn, my familiar successfully demoralizes an enemy, rendering it shaken. I then do a ranged spellstrike with my +1 cruel bow, channeling snowball. I hit, so the enemy is both shaken and sickened. The enemy also needs to make a fortitude save against snowball or be staggered. Does he only take the -2 penalty to the save from shaken, or does he have a -4 to the save from both shaken and sickened?)
Anyone have any thoughts?
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Yes should be good. Sickened happens when weapon hot, the spell goes off after weapon hits them.
Cavall wrote: Yes should be good. Sickened happens when weapon hot, the spell goes off after weapon hits them. Awesome. Seems like a pretty good combo.
Cavall wrote: Yes should be good. Sickened happens when weapon hot, the spell goes off after weapon hits them. That's the way I read it, too. You roll for the hit, and only after that succeeds do you consider the spell to be discharged. So I think of the discharge as occurring a split second after the weapon actually hits.
I've always run all things coming from a successful attack roll as resolving simultaneously (Which would mean only a -2 penalty for shaken, and the sickened would occur after all things pertaining to this attack roll were resolved. And even though you decide with spellstrike whether to use it or not after making a successful hit, I don't find it convincing that it occurs after the attack roll.)
Unfortunately the rules don't have the granularity (as far as I'm aware) to clearly indicate what method is correct.
Claxon wrote: I've always run all things coming from a successful attack roll as resolving simultaneously (Which would mean only a -2 penalty for shaken, and the sickened would occur after all things pertaining to this attack roll were resolved. And even though you decide with spellstrike whether to use it or not after making a successful hit, I don't find it convincing that it occurs after the attack roll.)
Unfortunately the rules don't have the granularity (as far as I'm aware) to clearly indicate what method is correct.
Well I could've sworn I saw an FAQ or developer post at some point that says when multiple things would apply at the same time, the player chooses the order most beneficial to them, but I can't seem to locate it now.
If anyone knows what I'm talking about and could point me in the right direction, I'd appreciate it.
I've never heard of such an FAQ, but I'd be happy to see a ruling on how this should function if one exists.
Even MORE specific example:
A Brawler with a Cruel AoMF and the Enforcer feat Declares a Knockout attack.
These things can get a bit dicey to lay out.
(I would say that in my example, Cruel triggers first, then Enforcer or Knockout at the brawler's discretion. Unless the creature was already shaken from a preceding hit, Cruel would not work.)
I would say that it works the way you want it too, but I can also see why others might decide it should not.
I agree with toasted amphibian's brawler example.
Cruel will only trigger if the creature is already shaken when struck. Striking it and causing shaken on that round, doesn't also cause cruel to trigger from the same hit. As far as I can tell, the Knockout ability in no way factors into this.
Claxon wrote: I agree with toasted amphibian's brawler example.
Cruel will only trigger if the creature is already shaken when struck. Striking it and causing shaken on that round, doesn't also cause cruel to trigger from the same hit. As far as I can tell, the Knockout ability in no way factors into this.
Knockout save: Made at -2, -4? etc. An effect with a save triggers off of dealt damage.
No, what I meant is that knockout itself doesn't factor into how the character's saves are affected.
You are saying you're questioning whether or not the save (for Knockout) is made at a -2 or -4, but Knockout doesn't matter in this example. Literally any other ability that forces a save with an attack would be in the same situation.
Claxon wrote: No, what I meant is that knockout itself doesn't factor into how the character's saves are affected.
You are saying you're questioning whether or not the save (for Knockout) is made at a -2 or -4, but Knockout doesn't matter in this example. Literally any other ability that forces a save with an attack would be in the same situation.
Yes. Unless it has an affect on a hit, or some other situational thing.
I picked 3 example abilities with slightly different triggers.
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