Define 'Same Attack Action'


Rules Questions


My rogue has the feat Martial Training, and one of his maneuvers states the following:

Quote:
The Thrashing Dragon disciple’s skill with his dual weapons allows him to strike with practiced speed and alacrity, allowing him to make an attack with two wielded weapons (or unarmed strikes), using the same attack action. Creatures with more than two arms may still only strike with two wielded weapons.

And in the table listing the maneuvers it says

Quote:
Attack a single target with two wielded weapons.

So what it sounds like to me is that you make one attack roll and it represents both attacks. But I'm not sure, and this is extremely relevant.

The reason I believe it's one attack roll is because the table summary of it specifically states you attack a single enemy, while the long description doesn't mention it. If you make two separate attack rolls, I feel like the description would mention that you may not attack two different creatures with these attacks.

Now onto the next question which is relevant to me as a rogue that can use invisibility: If they use the same attack roll, are the attacks simultaneous? Because if they are, I would get sneak attack on both seeing how both of them occur while I'm still invisible, if they aren't simultaneous then one of them breaks the invisibility spell and I don't get the sneak attack on my second attack, right?

So to summarize my questions: Do I only roll once to attack for both attacks, and are they simultaneous or not?


its one standard action to attack with both weapons. you roll each separately.


Agreed, one standard action two attack rolls.


Each are rolled separately, they just consume the same action.

Ironically, this would work with Vital Strike, since it specifically references Attack Action.


Unfortunately not, manoeuvres are expressly not able to be used with vital strike chain.


Citation please, because under normal rules it's an attack action, which Vital Strike works with.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Citation please, because under normal rules it's an attack action, which Vital Strike works with.

I don't know if this sidebar is in the actual book, or something d20PFSRD added themselves:

Quote:
The question will invariably come up as to whether or not you can use Vital Strike and its subsequent feat chain with martial strikes or on a charge. In short, the answer is “no”, and here is why. A vital strike requires the expenditure of a standard action to perform the attack; quite simply, a vital strike operates very much like a martial maneuver. Many maneuvers are standard actions as well, and detail that the character makes an attack with it, not unlike with Vital Strike. They’re mutually exclusive to one another. If a character had a way to get a second standard action that turn, then they could use both but not on the same attack. The same holds true for charging attacks. When you attempt a charge, it is a full round action so there are no actions left at the end to use with a maneuver (unless you possess the Martial Charge feat.) Keep in mind, this does not disqualify the use of boosts with a charge or a vital strike, nor does it disqualify the benefits of a martial stance.


Jeraa wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Citation please, because under normal rules it's an attack action, which Vital Strike works with.

I don't know if this sidebar is in the actual book, or something d20PFSRD added themselves:

Quote:
The question will invariably come up as to whether or not you can use Vital Strike and its subsequent feat chain with martial strikes or on a charge. In short, the answer is “no”, and here is why. A vital strike requires the expenditure of a standard action to perform the attack; quite simply, a vital strike operates very much like a martial maneuver. Many maneuvers are standard actions as well, and detail that the character makes an attack with it, not unlike with Vital Strike. They’re mutually exclusive to one another. If a character had a way to get a second standard action that turn, then they could use both but not on the same attack. The same holds true for charging attacks. When you attempt a charge, it is a full round action so there are no actions left at the end to use with a maneuver (unless you possess the Martial Charge feat.) Keep in mind, this does not disqualify the use of boosts with a charge or a vital strike, nor does it disqualify the benefits of a martial stance.

Gorum's swordsmanship for VS on a charge, Heritor Knight 6 for VS on all Standard action attacks.


They should just errata Vital Strike out of existence since they go through so much effort to make Vital Strike such a trap option...


Well, Vital Strike on both wouldn't be gamebreaking usually. You are still capped to two attacks, and both damage dice are (usually) weaker than the one of a two-handed weapon.

That said, Vital Strike can be read as to be in conflict with the maneuver above:

CRB wrote:
When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage.

Now it's possible to argue that the maneuver above replaces this one attack by two, but I find this a bit of a stretch.


That's how I read it. Vital Strike only cares if you use the Attack Action, which you are even with the maneuver.

But if they're saying Vital Strike is its own maneuver, and you can't combine maneuvers...

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