(Feat) Hit Points vs Ini / Saves

[DonKalleOne]

Hi,
i have a LvL 7 Zen Archer Monk/Inquisitor and have found to feats that i would take at lvl 7.
First My Character has 57 HP and Fort+10/Ref+8/Will+13 and Ini +7 (+12 @ LvL 8).

Should i get Toughness for more steady HP gain or should i go for additional Traits for Reactionary (+2 Ini) and Glory of Old (+1 Saves vs Spells/Poison).

Im gettin a +2 Cloak soonish and around lvl 9 a (dex/)Con belt.

Hiope i get some insight

[Claxon]

I've always found toughness to be worthless. At your level it's 7 extra up. That's maybe 1 extra attack you'll survive.

As for what you should spend your feat on, I also wouldn't suggest extra traits. What feats do you currently have?

[DonKalleOne]

Dodge, Impr Ini, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation, Deadly Aim, Precise Shot, Impr Precise Shot, Point Blank Shot, Close Combat Shooting, Perfect Strike, Additional Traits. and Improves unarmed Strike.
Dont wonder Zen Archer is Busted and i run around with 26-33 AC

Traits: Magical Knach (Inqui)[Magic Trait], Adaptive Magic [Campaign trait], Wisom in the Flesh (DisDiv)[Reli Trait]and Nomad (Survival)[Race Trait].
I have a Combat and Regional Traits left.

[supervillan]

Toughness isn't worthless. It's hit points, and hit points are life. It is a boring feat though.

But if you're just looking at choosing between these two feats your choice is made already. You can't take Additional Traits more than once. Any feat can only be chosen once unless it has specific wording saying otherwise. Additional Traits lacks this wording.

ETA: technically it might be the case that you can take a given feat more than once, but you don't gain any benefit from doing so unless the feat specifically says so which amounts to the same as not being able to take it twice.

feats, PRD wrote:

If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated in the description.

[Claxon]

supervillan wrote:

Toughness isn't worthless. It's hit points, and hit points are life. It is a boring feat though.

No, it's nearly worthless.

Do you know how much of a difference 20 hp makes at 20th level?

Very little. It's basically a one extra hit buffer at any point and time at any level.

To me, that's just not worth the cost of a feat.

Feats that actually help the archer bring down the enemy more quickly will be of better use than 7hp (at his current level).

Do you have Deadly Aim and the other important archery feats?

[DonKalleOne]

I have every important feat for my bab +5 at lvl 9 I have enough for clustered shots.
If there are useful 2 feat combo im willing to retrain dodge

[Phntm888]

I don't see Rapid Shot or Manyshot on your list of feats. You might want to grab those two.

[supervillan]

Rapid shot is no use to a zen archer. You can't flurry of bows and use rapid shot at the same time. It is however a prerequisite for manyshot, which is useful. but manyshot is on the list of bonus feats for a zen archer (from level 6 upwards) so you probably don't need to spend ordinary feats on it.

[Cavall]

Toughness is great. If you plan to get hit.

You are an archer. That's not your plan. At all.

[Legoman]

Extra Ki?

[lemeres]

I mostly use toughness when I have a d8 class that I want to do melee, but I really like a favored class bonus.

Toughness usually doesn't matter. It does come up when you have something particularly squishy that you want to routinely put into melee range.

Honestly, it seems like a great feat for witches. The range on their hexes means they need to be uncomfortably close. In comparison, a pistol using gunslinger might end up in an even shorter range... but it is a d10 class, so no need for toughness.

Anyway- for a ranged monk? No need for toughness.

[DanEvans]

I agree with the consensus of toughness not being a good feat here. A Zen Archer build, if done right, should begin to start seeing pretty decent boosts to AC somewhere between levels 9-12, depending on the gold and items you're able to get during the campaign. Remember that the Zen Archer really only needs to focus on dexterity and wisdom, and that its wisdom bonus not only adds damage to attacks, but is directly added to AC when unarmored (which it always should be). The ZA build I last used had an AC of 37 at level 12. Saves were Fort +10, Dex +14, Wil +16, and initiative +12. As far as gear I would focus on getting a belt of incredible dexterity +4 and headband of inspired wisdom +4 as soon as you're able. Each cost 16k gold. If you're concerned about your saves then definitely get a cloak. DO NOT get a belt of physical might (dex, con), as it's poor use of gold. Especially because it already sounds like your con bonus is at a +2 or +3.

I would recommend putting skill points into UMD so that you can use wands. A ZA pops off a ton of arrows, so you can get a wand of abundant ammunition (50 charges) for only 750 gold. If you have an efficient quiver (only 1800 gold), you can keep refilling the 100-arrow-capacity quiver when you're low or out of arrows. Furthermore, you can also get a wand of gravity bow (CL 1, 50 charges) for 750 gold, which would last for 1 minute per pop, or you could bump the CL to get a longer duration and reduce the number of initial charges. But I digress from my original point, which is that since you have concerns about your HP, with UMD you can get wands of cure light wounds or moderate wounds for 750 or 4500 gold each, respectively.

But again I emphasize the importance on AC over than HP. You can't lose health if you can't be hit. Plus, since a ZA's AC isn't coming from armor, unless you have something like Bracers of Armor or an Amulet of Natural Armor, your AC and Touch AC will be the same, so even incorporeal creatures will have a hard time doing damage to you. Use your feats to improve your zen archer.

[Claxon]

supervillan wrote:

Rapid shot is no use to a zen archer. You can't flurry of bows and use rapid shot at the same time. It is however a prerequisite for manyshot, which is useful. but manyshot is on the list of bonus feats for a zen archer (from level 6 upwards) so you probably don't need to spend ordinary feats on it.

Neither Rapid Shot or Many Shot are useful.

Zen Archer specifically says you can't use either with the Zen Archer's flurry.

Really, the best Zen Archer build (IMO) is one that takes 3 levels in Zen Archer and then multiclasses into Inquisitor.

[supervillan]

Claxon wrote:

supervillan wrote:

Rapid shot is no use to a zen archer. You can't flurry of bows and use rapid shot at the same time. It is however a prerequisite for manyshot, which is useful. but manyshot is on the list of bonus feats for a zen archer (from level 6 upwards) so you probably don't need to spend ordinary feats on it.

Neither Rapid Shot or Many Shot are useful.

Zen Archer specifically says you can't use either with the Zen Archer's flurry.

Really, the best Zen Archer build (IMO) is one that takes 3 levels in Zen Archer and then multiclasses into Inquisitor.

Hah, I missed that (manyshot). Thanks. I think it's worth staying in Zen Archer for the ki pool though.