Example: If the atoning spell-less cleric PC runs out of cure potions after battling some dungeon beasts while on the quest is he allowed to travel 2 days to the nearest town to re-stock (and 2 days back to the dungeon) or would this be seen as NOT obeying the geas/quest and thus incurring the stat penalties. Or what happens if the PC decides a levitation potion would help, is he then allowed to go back and get one? Or if he encounters a strange monster may he return home and do research on the monster through an NPC or library, thus delaying achieving the goal of the quest by 2-4 days etc etc??? It seems like it's up to the DM. Background: As DM, I have warned the party ahead of the quest including the quested individual that they are going into the wilderness and may be there for at least a week to complete the quest.
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If you want to be a killer GM, then sure.
If you want to be less aggressive because players sometimes underestimate the resources they will need, and the success of the geas depends on them not dying, then give the cleric a break. It's a reasonable thing to go back for necessary supplies.
If you want to be a killer GM, then sure.
If you want to be less aggressive because players sometimes underestimate the resources they will need, and the success of the geas depends on them not dying, then give the cleric a break. It's a reasonable thing to go back for necessary supplies.
I'm not the killer GM type. I try not to be anyway. I often post here to help me rein myself in when I feel I could be being too aggressive, so as to help me be more reasonable as DM. I agree that it's fair to let him go back for forgotten supplies. Can you think of an activity where the stat penalties WOULD kick in? I guess if he went on another non-linked adventure, or just pursued non-quest activities in the city for 24 hours or longer. He has been warnnd that when the quest kicks in he must pursue it or face penalties.
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Can you think of an activity where the stat penalties WOULD kick in? I guess if he went on another non-linked adventure, or just pursued non-quest activities in the city for 24 hours or longer. He has been warnnd that when the quest kicks in he must pursue it or face penalties.
Repeat offenses would absolutely qualify. I'd say if he didn't learn from the first time, then it's fair game. And, if he's doing anything in the city other than getting necessary supplies, then you can start letting penalties creep in.
I'd be pretty merciless, too, if he got distracted, detained, or delayed on the supply run. A delay from an honest mistake is one thing. That mistake compounding to more delays and problems is in "you made your bed now lay in it" territory.
Can you think of an activity where the stat penalties WOULD kick in? I guess if he went on another non-linked adventure, or just pursued non-quest activities in the city for 24 hours or longer. He has been warnnd that when the quest kicks in he must pursue it or face penalties.Repeat offenses would absolutely qualify. I'd say if he didn't learn from the first time, then it's fair game. And, if he's doing anything in the city other than getting necessary supplies, then you can start letting penalties creep in.
I'd be pretty merciless, too, if he got distracted, detained, or delayed on the supply run. A delay from an honest mistake is one thing. That mistake compounding to more delays and problems is in "you made your bed now lay in it" territory.
That's good advice. Thanks very much.
It might also depend upon how the Geas/Quest is worded.
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I think it depends on what the actual quest they were given is. The following is my 2c. Ultimately remember Quest is a compulsion effect. The questee must do their best to try and succeed at all. Spending days avoiding a quest by going shopping and reading endless guide books is not questing.
Let's pretend the quest is "Drink from the holy fountain of Zodmire, found at the peak of the Kipskier mountains."
Fallen From Grace, the priest, starts off at home and heads into the foothills and then thinks "I forgot to put out the cat, poor kitty, I'd best go home".
Delaying - I don't think they can go home even. They quest would compel them to continue on and sucks to the cat.
If they were still in their home village and they were just diverting past the house to put out the cat and stock up on gear that is fine.
So, back to our quest, the currently not-so-holy- Mr FFG Priest, comes to a raging river. Oh I have a folding boat a week back at home, I should go back for that. - BUZZ. He doesn't *need* a boat, that is just one way to get across the river. And really, Fallen should have packed all his goodies when he left home anyway, knowing he was on a difficult quest.
Fallen looks up river, the waters curl away from the top of the mountain, but he thinks he spots a place where the banks may be close enough to jump. Is this going out of his way? No, this is a likely means to get to his goal that is just a small diversion.
He looks downriver. Nice easy walk, slightly downhill. It even curves back toward the mountains. Maybe there is a ford down there? Is this acceptable even though there is no guarantee it will help him? Of course, he wants to get across alive after all, and that offers the possibility of it while still getting toward his objective.
After crossing the river Fallen has a strange dream. He has every confidence that this a true sending, and he learns that only the holy cup of Jasper can hold the holy waters of Zodmir. The Cup he knows is located in Far-Away-City. Can he travel to Far-Away-City in order to get the cup? Certainly, he is compelled to do so, as they only way he can drink the waters is from the cup, and the only way to get the cup is the visit Fall-Away-City.
Poor FFG Priest heads away from the mountain, knowing he would be returning, and cursing which ever entity who sent him the dream for not sending it sooner.
All of this of course is my thinking. Quests should be fun. An occasional challenge that changes the pace of things, not a heavy handed stick to punish people or keep them on the GM train track.
Depending on how the quest was worded, any action taken to advance the qeas qualifies.
This can include unlimited trips for additional resources unless specifically barred.
The thing with geas is, many intelligent targets will actively look for and exploit loopholes. This may not be as large an issue with a cleric seeking atonement, but as long as he believes the additional resources are genuinely needed and nothing in the geas baring spending time to obtain them, he can spend as much time as desired fulfilling the geas.
The geas spell specifically says that the subject can subvert instructions. So basically, as long as you are following the letter of the instructions, you are good.
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IMO, since it's not like they die if they go get the potions from the punishment, I'd punish them. The point of the Geas is to get them to do the thing in a time period; artificially extending the time period cheapens the point of the spell.
What's stranger is that if they go back to doing the Geas, 24 hours later they're healed of it all anyway.
Given it's a temporary punishment that fixes itself when he gets back on task, just punish him. That's the entire point of the spell, and the punishment literally only lasts for about the duration it sounds like they're traveling.
Alternatively, you should probably phrase the Geas to be subverted specifically, or to be done in a time frame, or things like that; that way you don't get into these situations.
Even if you phrase the geas to require a specific time frame, it still will not penalize the subject for returning to town. It only penalizes them if they miss the specific time frame.
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Example: If the atoning spell-less cleric PC runs out of cure potions after battling some dungeon beasts while on the quest is he allowed to travel 2 days to the nearest town to re-stock (and 2 days back to the dungeon) or would this be seen as NOT obeying the geas/quest and thus incurring the stat penalties. Or what happens if the PC decides a levitation potion would help, is he then allowed to go back and get one? Or if he encounters a strange monster may he return home and do research on the monster through an NPC or library, thus delaying achieving the goal of the quest by 2-4 days etc etc??? It seems like it's up to the DM. Background: As DM, I have warned the party ahead of the quest including the quested individual that they are going into the wilderness and may be there for at least a week to complete the quest.
Yes and no. If they "need" the potions and are unable to acquire them closer, then they should be allowed to go back to town.
I suggest an encounter with a traveling salesmen that just happens to have the gear they need, but at a premium (double the normal prices, perhaps). Allows the PCs to not delay, but also punishes them for being ill-prepared. And note that despite the premium, they really can't avoid paying the higher prices because the presence of the salesmen prevents the players from going back to town (since going back for the lower prices is a clear violation of priorities on atonement/geas). Make sure the salesmen is very tough, or otherwise defended against PC attacks and stealing, since the point is to punish the PCs, not reward with free gear....
Otherwise, as the GM, you need to work out what the denizens of the dungeon are doing in the next 4 days, any random encounters going to and from town, and if their quest/atonement/geas remains obtainable.
For adventurers, the biggest issue is if the quest is completed by another adventuring party while they are going back to town.... That does not fufill geas/atonement at all, plus they lose out on the entire adventure.
PS: If you go the expensive salesmen route, keep track of the extra gold spent and add it as a reward for the end of the adventure. Don't tell the PCs, just have them find more treasure than they'd expect to get. Should balance out the gold loss, while remaining an effective punishment.
I would say if they knew about the situation before hand and did not make adequate preparations then they are delaying the quest and incurs the penalties. If the character lacks something that is absolutely required to compete the quest they should be able to fetch it. But it has to be something that is 100% required to complete the quest, not just something that would be useful. So the lets say they need to get a key that is the only way to get into where they need to go, that would be necessary. Most of the examples you have given would qualify as useful, not necessary. If you allow them to delay the quest for useful gear they have a perfect loophole to avoid the quest. First it will be healing potions, next it will be rope, and eventually he will have forgotten his sewing kit. Without the healing potions he may be required to figure other ways to deal with the situation. Now instead of simply fighting the monster he may need to sneak around it, or maybe make a deal with it.
Remember that geas/quest FORCES you to follow the orders given in the spell. It is only if you are Prevented from following the orders that you take the penalties. You do not have a choice to ignore the quest and take the penalties.
If you were in a situation, such as jail, where you could not work toward the quest, then you take the penalties. If you are not prevented, you Must do as the caster dictated.
Geas is a very powerful spell.
I would say if they knew about the situation before hand and did not make adequate preparations then they are delaying the quest and incurs the penalties. If the character lacks something that is absolutely required to compete the quest they should be able to fetch it. But it has to be something that is 100% required to complete the quest, not just something that would be useful. So the lets say they need to get a key that is the only way to get into where they need to go, that would be necessary. Most of the examples you have given would qualify as useful, not necessary. If you allow them to delay the quest for useful gear they have a perfect loophole to avoid the quest. First it will be healing potions, next it will be rope, and eventually he will have forgotten his sewing kit. Without the healing potions he may be required to figure other ways to deal with the situation. Now instead of simply fighting the monster he may need to sneak around it, or maybe make a deal with it.
Problem with that is: What if they want to go back for something that is only 99% required to be able to complete the quest?
Unless not having the item would cause "almost certain death" the compulsion holds, the target will obey the compulsion. Though a clever target may find ways to twist the words.
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Recall that Geas can potentially require a very long or indefinite timetable for completion. Unless the quest specifies a timetable, you should still be able to resolve the quest in a very indirect route as long as you are truly focused on solving the quest.
What geas penalizes is players that ignore or otherwise avoid attempting to complete the quest or directive.
So if the geas is "Take the Ring to Mordor and destoy it by dropping it into the volcano there." There's no timetable. PCs could plan to accomplish this task "eventually" and still qualify as obeying, provided their marginal effort was directed at geas.
You could easily do an entire campaign where each chapter was working towards completing a single geas gained very early in the character's life. Chapter 1 could including going to "adventurer school" to obtain the skills needed to begin working towards the geas, and that would still qualify.
But at each step, the PC would need have some idea of why what they were doing presently would contribute to their overall goal.
So to the OP, yes, they can go back to town if that really is the better way to accomplish their goal in the present moment. But as the GM, if you present a "better" option, the PCs are obigated to try that instead.
Hence the suggestion before for a traveling salesmen, since the PCs can't really justify going back to town if there's a closer place to meet their needs so they can get back to their geas.
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My own interpretation has always been, that if the subject is making their best effort to accomplish the mission, then no penalty would be incurred.
Is the delaying action undertaken for the precise purpose of having the best chance of accomplishing the task as quickly as possible? Is it reasonably necessary? Then no problem.
I once had a player spend a couple days in town equipping and recruiting allies for the quest, and didn't see problem. The task was doomed had he NOT done so. And, as soon as he was in a position to have a reasonable chance of success, they headed out with due speed.
If the delay/action (or time spent) is not reasonable or directly related to the quest's success, then the penalty would apply.
It will likely be a judgement call for the GM.
My rule of thumb, given a particular character's personality/history, is "would this be something they would do, if the quest was their own idea, and of paramount importance to them"?
Thank you all for the comments. I enjoyed reading all of them on an interesting topic. Some of the comments may help, in some lovely bizarre ways, of improving this quest scenario I wrote myself. Just fyi ... the cleric wants to complete the quest because right now he is level 5 and has no spells until he atones ... also, though, he has been aware that he was about to go on the quest for some time so he has had plenty of time to organize himself. The scenario is now ongoing and if anyone is interested they can watch the videos on the facebook page "Pathfinder RPG Tokyo." It's been a long-running issue for the cleric and he's dealing with it while the other half of my campaign group deal with the wonderful Curse of the Crimson Throne.