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Howdy Paizo Boards!
I'm in need of your sage advice! Our DM has decided to run No Response from Deepmar with our 3 player group and I wanted to throw my lot into a character class I have heard speculation about - mystic theurge. While I'm familiar with the concept of arcane + divine = plenty of utility spells, I'm not sure...how to go about this.
Our part is compromised of a Switch Hitter Hunter (Wolf Pet) and an Invulnerable Barbarian.
Being that we're a level 8 party, I think I would hit the bare minimum for MT? If that's the case, can anyone recommend a build and role I should play?
Any advice is appreciated. Thanks!
Common consensus is to not do it.
If you have your heart set on being three levels behind on your casting, don't plan on blasting.
Party buffs and healing are how you want to do it.
Maybe be a Druid with the animal domain and boon companion, for a little more combat ability...
I would go Wizard/Cleric or Wizard/Druid, probably druid.
You would be a level 2 Mystic Theurge, so would be casting as level 5 wizard/level 5 druid.
Conceptually, it looks fun, but the entry requirements really nerf your casting into the ground. You would JUST have gotten access to fireball, while a pure caster would nearly have Teleport...
Common consensus is to not do it.
If you have your heart set on being three levels behind on your casting, don't plan on blasting.
Party buffs and healing are how you want to do it.
Maybe be a Druid with the animal domain and boon companion, for a little more combat ability...
I would go Wizard/Cleric or Wizard/Druid, probably druid.
You would be a level 2 Mystic Theurge, so would be casting as level 5 wizard/level 5 druid.
Conceptually, it looks fun, but the entry requirements really nerf your casting into the ground. You would JUST have gotten access to fireball, while a pure caster would nearly have Teleport...
If that's the case, would I better be off just Cleric 4 / Wizard 4 instead of taking the prestige class?
If that's the case, would I better be off just Cleric 4 / Wizard 4 instead of taking the prestige class?Common consensus is to not do it.
If you have your heart set on being three levels behind on your casting, don't plan on blasting.
Party buffs and healing are how you want to do it.
Maybe be a Druid with the animal domain and boon companion, for a little more combat ability...
I would go Wizard/Cleric or Wizard/Druid, probably druid.
You would be a level 2 Mystic Theurge, so would be casting as level 5 wizard/level 5 druid.
Conceptually, it looks fun, but the entry requirements really nerf your casting into the ground. You would JUST have gotten access to fireball, while a pure caster would nearly have Teleport...
Heck no. It's just that lagging three levels behind in two classes is often seen as weaker than being full level in a single class.
The higher level you get, the better this gets.
It's gonna suck at first, then be okay, then great, then super awesome.
If you play to level 20, you will have level nine spells in two different classes with MT, but only level 5 if you just multiclass.
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If you really want something that can do arcane and divine, I can think of two excellent options.
1)Shaman - Humans can pinch spells of the cleric list with their FCB, and the Lore wandering Hex lets them cherry pick off the wizard list. You can get a lot of flexibility
2)Razmiran Priest Sorcerer - At level 9, you can cast off divine scrolls without depleting them(using your spell slots instead). You are an arcane fullcaster who is edging towards tier 0 with their ability to cherry pick off a huge number of spell lists.
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If you'd like to play a Mystic Theurge type of character but don't want to prestige or multi class, why not try the Theurge base class in the New Paths Compendium from Kobold Press?
The New Paths Compendium has received a ton of 5-star reviews and the Theurge base class has proven to be among the most popular of the many new classes in the book :)
A couple snippets from recent reviews:
The Theurge is, in my opinion, a long needed addition to the game. The use of a "Prayer Book" elegantly handles the balance issues of giving a single class access to effectively every spell in the game.
The Theurge! Oh my! ... the Theurge has a lot of versatility, and can bring a lot of tools to any party.
The star for me is the Thergue.
The Theurge is an amazing spellcaster that allows you to cast divine and arcane spells right from the get go, without having to make that climb into Paizo’s Mystic Theurge prestige class ...
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I through my vote for the Shaman with the Lore spirit, oracle.
I feel the biggest question though is why were you wanting to go MT? What about it seemed interesting? If we know that we might be able to suggest a class that fits it perfectly.
I through my vote for the Shaman with the Lore spirit, oracle.
I feel the biggest question though is why were you wanting to go MT? What about it seemed interesting? If we know that we might be able to suggest a class that fits it perfectly.
I think MT appealed because it was something I haven't tried yet. But more importantly, I wanted to support my team as best as possible considering we've a Switch Hitter Hunter (Wolf Pet) and an Invulnerable Barbarian.
Am I looking at the wrong options?
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Yeah, it will likely be super fun to play, just not super powerful on its own.
Do it.
Do eeeeeet. :D
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Well the "best" support will be a soloclassed class.
I feel the best support is an evangelist cleric with the heroism domain. It gives you inspire courage, all the cleric spells, and eventually mass heroism.
The shaman is very good because it has the full shaman list, can pick from the cleric list, and can gain spells from the wizard list. Really making it have the spells you want.
I through my vote for the Shaman with the Lore spirit, oracle.
I feel the biggest question though is why were you wanting to go MT? What about it seemed interesting? If we know that we might be able to suggest a class that fits it perfectly.
I think MT appealed because it was something I haven't tried yet. But more importantly, I wanted to support my team as best as possible considering we've a Switch Hitter Hunter (Wolf Pet) and an Invulnerable Barbarian.
Am I looking at the wrong options?
If you just want a support character, clerics and bard both do this VERY well. A bard with the Flagbearer feat is quite sweet for the buffing thing. Clerics have so many buffing and support options with all their spells and domain powers that there's some cool stuff in there.
I through my vote for the Shaman with the Lore spirit, oracle.
I feel the biggest question though is why were you wanting to go MT? What about it seemed interesting? If we know that we might be able to suggest a class that fits it perfectly.
I think MT appealed because it was something I haven't tried yet. But more importantly, I wanted to support my team as best as possible considering we've a Switch Hitter Hunter (Wolf Pet) and an Invulnerable Barbarian.
Am I looking at the wrong options?
Which spells on the cleric and wizard list were you thinking of using for your buffs?
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This was my one big complaint about Advanced Class guide. We got the arcanist, which was not IMHO needed, and the iconic cleric/magic-user or mystic theurge (depending on which version you played), is completely ignored. I really think they missed the mark by not including a full class that merged both arcane and divine. And no the shaman doesn't count as an acceptable substitute :)
In particular, either allow early entry to MT or give us a sub class that fits the same type of mould.
Mystic Theurge has a couple problems - Stats and Casting Progression. Unless you're using a Sorcerer/Oracle combo or the Empyreal Bloodline, you're going to end up with two different casting stats. On the other hand, if you do use one of those options you need to take 4 levels instead of 3 to get 2nd-level casting, delaying entry until Level 8 or even 9. For this reason most prefer to use the tried-and-true Wizard/Cleric method, entering the class at Level 7. If you can start later on then taking a spontaneous class may be worth it.
Here's what I'd do if I started a campaign with the intent of playing a Mystic Theurge:
Spell Sage Wizard 3 / Ecclesitheurge 3 / MT 10 / X 4
Dual-Talent Human
STR: 8
DEX: 12
CON: 13
INT: 16+2
WIS: 15+2
CHA: 10
Increases: 4 - WIS, 8 - CON, 12/16/20 - INT or WIS, depending on route
Spell Sage gives you some added casting strength and versatility while Ecclesitheurge gives you the Divine Bond and allows you to switch a domain's spells every day (though domains sadly won't progress). Focus on buffing the party and tossing out area control spells like walls to control the battlefield without giving your enemies a chance to save. Your spell DCs are down by 1 or 2 at some levels compared to other casters, but you have WAY more spells a day and can pick spells from other classes as well. Sorta like a Skald but with two full-casting lists.
Alternatively, you could get a lot of mileage from a spontaneous caster, such as an arcanist.
Arcanist 4 / Hidden Priest 3 / Mystic Theurge 10 / X 4
Samsaran
STR: 8
DEX: 13
CON: 14-2
INT: 17
WIS: 17
CHA: 10
Increases: 4 - INT, 8 - WIS, 12 - DEX, 14/16 - INT or WIS
There's not much to this build - Hidden Priest is just a really cool flavor option. I like the idea of a theurge who dabbles in divine magic and conceals it from the world by making it look like an arcane spell. I suggest Potent Magic and either Item Crafting or Metamagic Knowledge as your exploits, making it that much harder to resist your spells or boosting their caster level a few times a day. Once again, focus on spells that don't allow saves, such as buffs, walls, and maybe even a summon or two. Don't be afraid to use saving throws with this build though - you may be down a spell level or two, but your Potent Magic exploit fixes that.
And finally, one more (somewhat facetious) example.
Sorcerer 6 / Mystic Theurge 10
Be a Nymph
Yes, I am bitter about the fact that "casts as a Level 7 Druid" can be progressed by Mystic Theurge despite a lack of actual levels to back it up. No, I do not think it is fair that a creature that adds CHA to their saves and AC (as a deflection bonus no less) can take Sorcerer levels that don't count as "Key" classes. Yes, I do think Mystic Theurge should add 1 CR for progressing her racial abilities as well as 1/2 CR for progressing her "Non-Key" class.
Seriously, this was the first AP released after the core rulebook's guidelines were released and caution was thrown into the wind with this one. She's listed as a CR 20 but has more power than any Level 20 character could ever achieve. She's closer to a CR 25.
The Mystic Theurge is a nice concept but would be an absolute pig to play in the current state of things. Late spell access and poor class features. Luckily there are many classes that do similar things.
There have been some very good suggestions in this thread. A Shaman can do a great job as a flexible utility caster - fewer overall spells than a MT but good options, more class features and higher maximum spell level. Combining the Healing spirit with Lore Wandering Spirit and Human FCB gives enormous strength in depth. All while wearing medium armour with a shield.
Witches have more Arcane options but get far fewer ways to cherry-pick spells.
Evangelist Cleric or Bard are again great suggestions. You won't have the spell access of a MT or Shaman but can turn a couple of decent melee allies into unstoppable death-machines.
You're likely to end up in an Anvil/Arm role providing Battlefield Control and Buffing. Any of the above could do this, but all of them do it in different ways. Build accordingly.
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Lots of advice available for the Mystic Theurge. Most of it runs along the lines of don't do it, it's a trap. I say do it anyway. How a class is played, the creativity of the player and the situations you come across are never a reflection of how this class looks on paper. A pure spellcaster is always going to look better at what he does best then you will if you try to do the same things. Accept it and move on to the realization that when it comes down to it, you have more options then he does. When he runs dry, you still have 50% of your firepower left.
You can be a blaster. I suggest a spontaneous arcane casting class for this. Mostly crossblooded sorcerer (Orc/draconic). You won't be AS GOOD as a pure sorcerer that went the same route but you knew this going in, right? Spend a feat, get Experimental Wordcaster and have fun throwing mini-fireballs around in 1st level spell slots and using the same spell spell to combine two effect in a higher level spell slot and requiring a will save to avoid the effects.
You can have a good caster level (or equal to character level). Magical Knack (+2 CL), Varisian Tattoo (+1 CL for school), Orange Ioun Stone (better in Wayfinder, +1d4-1 CL) and Arthimancy (beware, math involved).
You don't get Teleport at level 9. So? Buy some scrolls. You'll get the spell in a few levels if you really, really want it. Until then, make due. Your schtick is versatility.
My favorite Mystic Theurge combo? Druid/Sorcerer for many of the reasons I gave above. Squeezing Tattoo-ed Sorcerer on top of crossblooded (DM oked this regardless of actually 'conflicting' of not) allowed me to get the +1 CL to evocation spells. Magical Knack boosted Sorcerer casting enough to make up for the 3 Druid levels I took. I used an Orange Ioun Stone in a Wayfinder to boost my druid casting as needed. I used Intensify Spell to throw 10d6+10 (+20 if it matches Draconic bloodline) damage from 1st level spell slots (Magical Lineage). You want to know an awesome tactic to use against a boss that can be effected by ability drain? Throw 1d3 Stirges at them from your Druid 2nd level SNA. Touch attach and an instant -1 CON. Boss either tries to remove them or defend themselves against the party. Either way, he loses hit points. Helps lower Fort Saves too.
If Variant multiclass had been out back then, I would have jumped at the chance to take Cleric, get a domain power and some Channeling ability to help the team, or perhaps Bard.
I would suggest you do what I do.
If you're playing in a rigidly organized game, do not play a mystic theurge.
If you're playing in a homegame, you'll need to homebrew a 16 level prestigious class from the bones of the mystic theurge we have. If you choose to set aside the time with your DM to do so, here's my design advice.
Specific Classes: Design it based on a particular arcane and divine spell casting combination. Ex Wizard/Cleric, Witch/Druid, Sorcerer/Oracle
Armor Casting: At some point in the class, whether given over several level or just one, the caster should lose the penalties for casting arcane spells in armor they are proficient with.
One level behind: The prerequisites of the class should be exact enough that the end result is being able to cast one spell level behind other full casters, but capable of casting both types of spells.
Full Progression: The class should fit the chosen two casters so that it has enough levels to go to 20 as long as you enter as soon as you meet the prerequisites.
Without meeting those design goals, I doubt a mystic theurge will ever be an acceptable substitute for a normal caster of either variety.
A Rules As Written Mystic Theurge would have been situationally decent if it hadn't gotten SLA FAQ nerfsledgehammered earlier this year (in other words, allow early entry on at least one of the classes -- probably be okay if you let spell like abilities substitute for 2nd level casting on the arcane class or the divine class but not both). The situations needed on top of this would be (at least the ones I can think of off the top of my head):
1. The party you are in has a Witch or Shaman built to snag critical spells in the other type of spellcasting from their main one (from divine or arcane, respectively), but the adventuring day is long enough that they have to worry about running out of spells per day, and the 6/9 and/or 4/9 casters (if any) can't take up all of the slack (whether due to being too specialized or still not having enough total spells per day). Your job is to fill in casting of lower level spells when caster level is not critical, so that they don't run out too fast; they concentrate on the higher level spells, and on lower level spells when high caster level is critical (the 6/9 casters, if any, would help with that).
2. Sort of a variation of the above: The party is large and has long adventuring days, but has only 1 each of 9/9 arcane and 9/9 divine spellcasters. This works sort of like the above, but replacing the Witch or Shaman with these two spellcasters, but the spellcasting demand is higher, and the 6/9 and/or 4/9 spellcasters (if any) can't take up all of the slack, so you still need to fill in.
3. The party is going through a campaign where you don't need a 9/9 spellcaster (which in most cases means you won't be up against one, except for maybe the end boss, in which case you are going to need special preparation). You know what they say about the kingdom of the blind . . . except in this case, instead of being one-eyed, you have the equivalent of 2 partially functional eyes.
Step 1: Light three levels on fire.
Step 2: Spend a few months of gameplay slowly becoming more and more frustrated before it dawns on you that the fighter's magical crafter cohort is actually a better spell caster than you are.
Step 3: Give up on the Mystic Theurge and play a Lore Shaman.
Thanks for the feedback, everyone!
Hm. All this talk of the Witch and Shaman making good base-class Theurges makes me wonder if using them as your entry for Mystic Theurge would create some sorta super-Theurge.
I'll be back later.
Most of their good base-class Theurgy comes from their class features, not spell lists. Mystic Theurge only advances spell lists, not class features.Hm. All this talk of the Witch and Shaman making good base-class Theurges makes me wonder if using them as your entry for Mystic Theurge would create some sorta super-Theurge.
I'll be back later.
Not too sure I agree on that. The Witch spell list includes many arcane staples while including divine spells like the Cure and Inflict lines, condition removal (Blindness/Deafness and Disease), Death Ward, etc. Typical Cleric stuff. The Shaman list has a lot of divine stuff from the Cleric and Druid lists but also includes many arcane spells like Stoneskin, False Life, Fly, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, and Cone of Cold.
Both spell lists dabble in both arcane and divine spells, though Witch is mostly arcane and Shaman is mostly divine. The loss of Spirit and Patron spells does lessen the viability somewhat, but the spell lists are both full casters with normal progression (a big plus) that have a wide variety of spells from different spell lists (also a big plus). Besides, I feel like the lack of strong progression in wizard and cleric class features is more of a failing of those classes - besides the delayed casting you don't actually lose much.
Still, mostly just an intriguing prospect - may not even be viable, but can't say it doesn't sound interesting.
While the mystic theurge is commonly thought of to combine two 9-level casting classes, it may actually work "best" with other options. It works for two 9-level casters (to an extent), but many hate that they are not as dominant as a single-classed 9-level caster between about 5th and 9th-11th (depending on certain choices); even during the "sucky" levels, a mystic theurge can excel at providing utility and healing/support (especially with Scribe Scroll, possibly for free if a wizard, and Craft Wand; Craft Wand for often-used spells like cure light wounds and Scribe Scroll for spells that aren't used that often, but are extremely useful to have in certain circumstances like water breathing).
One of the "better" alternates is magus 6 (for Broad Study)/cleric (negative energy channeling) 3/mystic theurge. The cleric buffs (divine favor, magic vestment, etc.) and spontaneous inflict spells help the magus with combat ability and more spells to use with Spell Combat/Spellstrike.
^Not only that, but as noted above for Shaman and Witch although for reasons other than Theurgy, much of the Magus' power comes from class features, so if you dip or prestige out of Magus for more than just a dip to gain some other class feature, you are really shooting yourself in the foot. As an alternative, you could go Magus VMC Cleric, but unfortunately the VMC Cleric is REALLY SLOW to come online -- you would hae to wait all the way until 19th level for what you want to do with Negative Energy Channeling to become effective on level-appropriate enemies (VMC Cleric hannel Energy starts at 7th level, but starts out 6 levels behind, and on further examination I don''t even see a way to get Variant Channeling with it). On the other hand, Mystic Theurge doesn't progress cchanneling at all, and while you got Variant Channeling from your Cleric levels, you still end up with really wimpy Channeling (and unlike VMC Cleric it falls further behind as you level).
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But you don't even get that many spells. At mid levels, you're almost certainly behind in how many spells you can cast. At all levels, you're behind on your highest-level slots, and you're a MAD spellcaster to boot. Sure, you *might* pull ahead by level 16, but you're also down on caster level and spell level. You'd need to get some unfavorable combination with at least one spontaneous caster half to become SAD, which will actually make you sad because you lose another 1/2 spell level, which is a big hit for a class already 1 1/2 spell levels behind.i think where the MT would shine , is if you got allot of pre buff spells for the party and immediate cast spells. you would have to focus on your only real strength , and that is how many spells you get.
you could pre buff the party , cast a ton of immediate spells and still have some for reg casting.
I ran the numbers.
Wizard/Cleric Theruges have ability scores of 18/18 after items
SAD classes have a casting ability score of 24
Note: This excludes cantrips, and wizard are treated as always specialist without bonded item
A wizard has 29 slots
A sorcerer or oracle has 34.
A cleric/wizard theruge has 35.
A cleric/empyreal sorcerer theruge has 39
An Oracle/Sorcerer theruge has 40
You aren't up that many spells, and the vast majority of them are very low level. Honestly, if you want to spam all the buffs, go play a Razmiran Priest. They get the scroll ability about the time Theruges stop being unforgivably terrible, and they can fake being any divine caster while still having full sorcerer casting in their back pocket, instead of just being two weak classes. Seriously, the Theruge plays like two casters three-four levels lower without the action economy that brings or a lot of their class features. Even flat out just having two APL-3 casters is weaker than a single APL caster.
One of the "better" alternates is magus 6 (for Broad Study)/cleric (negative energy channeling) 3/mystic theurge. The cleric buffs (divine favor, magic vestment, etc.) and spontaneous inflict spells help the magus with combat ability and more spells to use with Spell Combat/Spellstrike.But 1/2 BAB hurts.
Heroism (either as a domain spell or through Spell Blending) + divine favor counters the 1/2 BAB nicely.
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If you'd like to play a Mystic Theurge type of character but don't want to prestige or multi class, why not try the Theurge base class in the New Paths Compendium from Kobold Press?
The New Paths Compendium has received a ton of 5-star reviews and the Theurge base class has proven to be among the most popular of the many new classes in the book :)
A couple snippets from recent reviews:
The Theurge is, in my opinion, a long needed addition to the game. The use of a "Prayer Book" elegantly handles the balance issues of giving a single class access to effectively every spell in the game.
The Theurge! Oh my! ... the Theurge has a lot of versatility, and can bring a lot of tools to any party.
The star for me is the Thergue.
The Theurge is an amazing spellcaster that allows you to cast divine and arcane spells right from the get go, without having to make that climb into Paizo’s Mystic Theurge prestige class ...
Did mention the Theurge base class in the New Paths Compendium from Kobold Press? :)