|
I'm aware of the Anaconda's Coils. I'm looking for another option, because I would like to use a different belt slot item, and because Anaconda's Coils aren't affordable until relatively late in a PFS career.
Assuming the race of the character cannot change (Dhampir), are there any other items, feats, spells (other than something that polymorphs him like Beast Shape), or 1 or 2 level class dips that can grant constrict?
Constrict is such a big part of the damage on a grapple build at the higher PFS levels (9+), that I don't want to give it up. But if an alternative way exists to get it, I might be willing to do that.
|
|
Hmm... Yeah, not the best fit, but good to know. It would eventually conflict with Rapid Grappler, and it requires grappling with the hair. Base build is a Hangman Vigilante/Strangler Brawler, so I'd be grappling with a whip/noose and dealing damage either with unarmed strikes (Improved, but just 1d3) or the Dhampir fangs (also 1d3). Static and sneak/hidden strike damage should add up, but having the extra constrict damage eventually brings it up to the level it needs to be.
|
|
Either a stat booster, so I can get more than the +2 STR that the Anaconda's Coils gives, or so I can go STR/CON to make up for the CON penalty from Dhampir (Moroi-blooded), or a bladed belt so I can get away with only enchanting one weapon. He fights with a Bastard Sword in Social ID and the whip/noose in Vigilante ID. It would also let me swap to a Bastard Sword or Greatsword in Vigilante ID when grappling isn't a realistic tactic.
There are alternatives for both of those. Just carrying two weapons and paying the enchant cost twice (cost about 8,000 more for +2 weapon), or use an Ioun stone for CON (costs 2,000 more initially than making a belt +2/+2), but then I'm limited to +2 STR from the Anaconda's Belt and +2 CON from the Ioun stone. I would probably buy a +2 STR belt until I can afford/have the fame for Anaconda's Coils
Transformative is also an option for the weapon, but it's crazy expensive at 10,000, and really doesn't make sense until the weapon is at least +3, which means id just be buying two weapons for most of my PFS career anyway. Bladed belt would be an extra 2,000 gold, and I could be using it from about third level on. Transformative may also not work for whip/Bastard Sword, since one is a one-handed weapon, and the other a two-handed weapon (without exotic proficiency).
Anyway, I was hoping there was another path to constrict just to compare the two, like a style chain or something. I've got some feat flexibility (especially with Martial Flexibility), and don't get a ton out of my last couple of levels of Vigilante. Just increased Hidden Strike damage and a Social and Vigilante Talent. So another dip is a possibility. Right now he's planned as Hangman Vigilante 8/Strangler Brawler 3. I'm currently planing to go Snapping Turtle Style/Clutch, but could swap that to something that grants constrict as well.
|
|
Dhampir was a GM race boon at the start of the year. So I can play one Dhampir (unless I trade for another boon). Tengu are still legal without a boon.
Essentially I'm relying on Sneak Attack from Brawler and Hidden Strike from Vigilante for most of my damage. I'll end up taking the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, since Strangler has to give up Brawler unarmed damage. Power Attack and Amulet of Mighty Fists will add some static bonuses on top of STR. But against things that don't take precision damage, I'll have to fallback on just power attacking with a two-handed weapon. Dhampirs can get fangs, but it's not a true bite attack. They can only use them for damage in certain circumstances in a grapple.
Mostly, the character is going for typical grappler feats. Improved Grapple, Greater Grapple, Rapid Grappler, and Snapping Turtle Clutch to be able to grapple someone when they miss me with an attack, then at I think 9th level, Body Shield so that I can get cover from whoever I'm grappling and possibly have their friend hit them instead. Rapid Grappler (and possibly Pinning KO) would kick in at 11, for my last regular PFS level. Right now, it's looking like I'd be able to afford the Anaconda's Coils around 9th. Hangman gives me Chokehold at what will be character level 8.
I've always been confused with Armor Spikes about whether it's additional damage or if you can just use them to deal damage instead of a weapon. They're cheap enough I'll probably just add them when I get masterwork/Mithral armor.
This character is very much built around the flavor of having a Dhampir grapple and bite someone into submission, but with a human Social ID (Guise of Life talent), so I want the sword to use in those situations and as a backup for the vigilante.
EDIT: Lots of interesting combos on your build!
So your plan is relying on a 1d3 bite attack from dhampir with nothing else specific about the dhampir?
|
|
So your plan is relying on a 1d3 bite attack from dhampir with nothing else specific about the dhampir?
It depends what you mean by that. I'm not relying on it in the sense that that is how I deal most of my damage. The bite isn't even necessary for the build, since my unarmed strike does the same damage. The real damage comes from pinning then sneak attacking/hidden strike. When that doesn't work, I'll have a d10 (or 2d6) two handed weapon with Power Attack.
If you mean that's all I'm getting out of being a Dhampir, mechanically you're more or less correct. It's mostly the flavor of the character that I like with Dhampir. The skill bonuses help in a small way, too, and Guide of Life is Dhampir specific, but not really much of a mechanical benefit in PFS, unless we're going somewhere that undead/Dhampirs might be hated.
I thought about other ways to go with the boon. Negative Energy Warpriest would have been my first choice, but I already have one of those in a Black-blooded Oracle/Warpriest. I don't want to ply a Necromancer. Don't have anything against them, just controlling a bunch of undead doesn't seem fun to me. I looked at Zealot Vigilante, but it felt like an underpowered Inquisitor.
Hangman stood out to me as having a lot of flavor, if a bit underpowered. I've never had a grapple build character. So I ran with it. He'll be starting off needing to make up ground power-wise, but I'm ok with that. I'll often have an underpowered concept that I then need to optimize around to get them on par with other more straightforward builds. The oracle/Warpriest I mentioned. A fighting fan ninja without Vanishing Trick. A Nagaji monk (before Scaled Fist was a thing) that uses a bodywrap instead of an amulet of mighty fists. A Kapenia Dancer. They've all been fun to play, and I've managed to keep them effective and not a drain on the party.
All of that is why figuring out a way to keep constrict is so important. It really is what keeps the damage relevant at higher levels. It's also why Id like to be able to boost his strength higher than just a +2 from the belt.
But I also think he'll be very effective against certain types of opponents. Spellcaster? He can shut them down if they don't have a way to get out of the grapple. Negative channeling cleric? Same thing, only now channeling doesn't work. So he'll have his moments to shine. I'm just trying to make sure he keeps up the rest of the time.
Im away from the house at the moment. I'll post the full build later tonight.
Transformative is also an option for the weapon, but it's crazy expensive at 10,000, and really doesn't make sense until the weapon is at least +3, which means id just be buying two weapons for most of my PFS career anyway. Bladed belt would be an extra 2,000 gold, and I could be using it from about third level on. Transformative may also not work for whip/Bastard Sword, since one is a one-handed weapon, and the other a two-handed weapon (without exotic proficiency).
This isn't a problem since Bastard Swords are one-handed weapons. That you can use it two-handed doesn't change it's physical classification although how you wield it can change how it mixes with various feats and class abilities. See this FAQ.
|
|
Gisher - Thanks. For some reason I thought it was the other way around. I get confused about that rule. It's the same for a Katana?
Ok, here's the build, or at least the current plan. I keep going back and forth about some of the specifics, or which feat to rely on Martial Flexibility for.
CG/CN Dhampir
STR 18 (+2 racial) DEX 14 CON 12 (-2 racial) INT 10 WIS 10 CHA 12 (+2 racial)
1 V1) ST:Guise of Life, F:Improved Unarmed Strike, Hidden Strike 1D4/1D8
2 V2) Hangman’s Noose
3 B1) F: Improved Grapple, Strangle +1d6, Martial Flexibility 4/day, Martial Training, Brawler’s Cunning
4 B2) BF: Snapping Turtle Style, Strangle +2d6, Practiced Strangler, +1 STR
5 V3) F: Power Attack (Swap to Toughness or Snapping Turtle Clutch at 9th), Bound to Truth, Hidden Strike 2D4/2D8, ST: Social Grace (Diplomacy)
6 V4) Twisted Rope
7 B3) F: Greater Grapple, Maneuver Training (Grapple) +1
8 V5) BF: Chokehold, Hidden Strike +3d4/3d8, ST: Street Smarts, +1 STR
9 V6) F: Body Shield, VT: Shield of Blades (grants Power Attack and lets me swap 5th level feat for something else)
10 V7) Hidden Strike +4d4/4d8, ST: Quick Change
11 V8) F: Rapid Grappler, VT: Foe Collision
In this particular version, things start to come together around level 4, when he gets Practiced Strangler. At that point, he can grapple round 1, Pin round 2 (dealing Brawler Sneak Damage), then damage round 3 dealing 1d3+4 STR+2PA*+2D6 sneak +1d4 hidden strike, all without losing DEX to AC. *He can use Martial Flexibility for Power Attack or Snapping Turtle Clutch, as needed, and will have PA at 5th.
At level 7, Greater Grapple comes online, and he can now Grapple and Pin in the same round, dealing 2D6 sneak. Then the next round Grapple to damage twice, dealing 1d3+4STR+4PA+2D6 sneak + 2d4 hidden strike.
At 9th, Body Shield comes online, and I should be able to afford the Anaconda's Coils, so the attack sequence becomes:
Round 1
Standard-> Grapple/Constrict 1d6+6 STR+4PA
Move-> Maintain/Pin Deal 2D6 Sneak/Constrict 1d6+6 STR+4PA+2d6 sneak+3d4 hidden strike
Average of 51.5 round 1. Not going to be the top damage dealer with that, but the opponent is also Pinned, and he can use the opponent to gain cover.
Round 2
Standard->Maintain to Damage: 1d3+6 STR+4PA+2d6 sneak+3d4 hidden strike
Constrict:1d6+6 STR+4PA+2d6 sneak+3d4 hidden strike
Move->Maintain to Damage: 1d3+6 STR+4PA+2d6 sneak+3d4 hidden strike
Constrict: 1d6+6 STR+4PA+2d6 sneak+3d4 hidden strike
Average of 111.
A CR 11 creature has around 145 hit points, so provided it can be pinned, he can take it out in 2 rounds.
Without constrict, those drop to 7 damage in round 1 and 52 in round 2, so you can see how important constrict is. If there isn't another viable option than the Anaconda's Coils, that's what I'm going with.
At 11th, you add a swift grapple to damage from Greater Grapple for another 30.5 or so damage each round. Also, Body Shield is a grapple check, which with the way constrict has been FAQ'd, should, I think, allow a constrict as part of using it. That I'm less sure about and would take to the Rules Forum before using it. But I think the FAQ basically said anytime you make a grapple check, you can constrict, so that would mean getting a few immediate action constricts in even before I get Greater Grapple.
Anyway, I consider upwards of 100 points of damage a round a viable character at 9th level. Not the most damage dealing, but given that grappling should succeed more often than just hitting, and I'd also be inflicting the Pinned condition on someone, I think it will be effective enough. Two handing the sword at that point would do less, but it would still be something like 1d10+9 STR+6 PA+2 enhancement+(3d4 hidden strike when flanking) for between 22.5 and 30 average damage per attack, and I could pick up Dedicated Adversary through Martial Flexibility for +2 more. Again, not fantastic numbers, but enough not to be useless when grappling isn't an option.
I didn't factor an Amulet of Mighty Fists or possibly an Immolation Vest or Deliquescent Gloves in, or the possibility of being enlarged. I know there are questions about an Amulet of Mighty Fists applying on the cmb roll, but I'd be using my whip to-hit and get its enhancement bonus for that. I think an Amulet of Mighty Fists would still apply to the damage during a grapple from my unarmed strike, fangs, or constrict, so that would add probably another +1 damage to each attack.
The visuals on all of that just feel like a street level vigilante/hero. Grabbing someone when they miss you (Snapping Turtle Clutch), pinning them, sinking your fangs in, swinging them around to block an attack (Body Shield) making them take the hit in the process, cutting off their air so they can't call for help or cast spells (Chokehold), and finally bashing them into someone (Foe Collision). Being a Dhampir just means that I get to do all of that, and be a half-Vampire. It sounds like a fun character to play to me, even if it does take some work to get the numbers where they need to be.
|
|
Hmm... I'll take the discussion about what Hidden Strike applies to over to the rules forum at some point. I'm not sure about your reading of it. The way I read it, the 1d8 version is limited as you describe, but the 1d4 version more or less works like sneak attack: "A stalker vigilante can also deal hidden strike damage to a target that he is flanking or that is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, but in these cases, the damage dice are reduced to d4s." At any rate, a grapple check is a melee attack, so I think it would work on a grapple check to damage, even if it doesn't work on constrict. I have an alternate version of the build that takes more Brawler levels, Vigilante 3/Brawler 8, I think. It would mean giving up Chokehold and Foe Collison, but just about everything else would be in there and I'd end up with 3D6 sneak and 2d4 hidden strike. It would be a shame to lose some of the fun Vigilante stuff, but that gets me Rapid Grappler faster, I think, and a higher CMB/grapple check.
Armor Spikes do extra damage on a successful grapple attack.
Right, but there seems to be a lot of disagreement on what that actually means. Do I get to deal it on the initial grapple? On a pin? Or only when I'm maintaining a grapple to damage? And do I get it on the constrict?
Or does it just mean I can use the armor spikes to cause damage instead of another weapon, as it talks about later in the description.
|
|
Side question RE armor spikes, is it worth it to get proficiency, or just work with the -4 penalty?
I guess it depends on how high your grapple check is. They are martial weapons, though, so if you have martial Proficiencies like the vigilante, then it's not an issue. I think they are in the close weapon group also, so a Brawler should get them as well.
|
|
Ok, looking back over some of the threads I used as the basis for the build, I was calculating constrict wrong. Neither the sneak attack, nor the hidden strike should apply to that. I see no reason why hidden strike shouldn't apply to the grapple roll to damage. Still, that cuts down on the overall damage quite a bit. A 9th level attack sequence looks more like this now:
Round 1
Standard-> Grapple/Constrict 1d6+6 STR+4PA
Move-> Maintain/Pin Deal 2D6 Sneak/Constrict 1d6+6 STR+4PA
Average of 34 round 1. Opponent is Pinned.
Round 2
Standard->Maintain to Damage: 1d3+6 STR+4PA+2d6 sneak+3d4 hidden strike
Constrict:1d6+6 STR+4PA
Move->Maintain to Damage: 1d3+6 STR+4PA+2d6 sneak+3d4 hidden strike
Constrict: 1d6+6 STR+4PA
Average of 79 round 2.
Total 113 or pretty close to a 60 point drop. That hurts.
So it would take 3 rounds to take out a CR11 opponent. I'm still ok with that, since I'd be keeping it occupied and unable to do very much.
Getting some additional rider effects becomes a little more important. Shirt of Immolation is likely. Amulet of Mighty Fists almost certainly. I'll have to see if Deliquescent Gloves would apply. I think so.
|
|
The reason I think it doesn't apply to the constrict is because the constrict is not an attack in and of itself. The sneak attack is already being added to the same attack that constrict is being added to. But, in addition, the Strangler ability is limited more than the rogue sneak attack. It only triggers when pinning or when dealing damage as part of a grapple. There's a possible argument that hidden strike should apply on the constrict, but I think it runs into the issue of being added twice. Although it does seem accepted that power attack applies, so who knows.
The reason I think Hidden Strike applies when dealing damage to a pinned opponent as part of a grapple is that a) the opponent is denied their dex, and b) "A stalker vigilante can also deal hidden strike damage to a target that he is flanking or that is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, but in these cases, the damage dice are reduced to d4s."
What you are looking at is limiting when the hidden strike deals 1d8. Not when the hidden strike damage can be used at all. Quoting the whole ability:
A stalker gains an ability called hidden strike, which allows him to deal an extra 1d8 points of precision damage on melee attacks (or ranged attacks from within 30 feet) against foes who are unaware of his presence, who consider him an ally, or who are made flat-footed by startling appearance. This extra damage increases by 1d8 at 3rd level and every 2 vigilante levels thereafter. A stalker vigilante can also deal hidden strike damage to a target that he is flanking or that is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, but in these cases, the damage dice are reduced to d4s. A stalker can deal hidden strike damage against targets with concealment (but not total concealment).
The two bolded sections are two separate conditions for dealing hidden strike damage. The first sections says you deal 1d8 points of damage when making a melee attack against a creature in those three situations.
The second bolded section says you can also deal hidden strike damage when an opponent is denied their dex or you are flanking them. It doesn't say when making a melee attack. Just that you can also deal hidden strike damage in those situations, at a reduced die. Dealing damage through a grapple to a pinned opponent meets the criteria for the reduced damage.
So my understanding of it is you deal 1d8s on melee attacks under strict circumstances, and you deal 1d4s in basically the same situations a rogue would deal sneak attack.
If the GM wants to insist that it be part of a "melee attack," keep in mind that combat maneuvers made with a weapon are melee attacks. Disarm and sunder are called out specifically, but trip also works that way. The Hangman archetype makes the grapple check with their weapon (a noose, which in my case would be a whip fashioned into a noose as allowed by the archetype).
And finally, there is at least one situation where a Hangman explicitly deals hidden strike damage in a grapple. The 11th level ability lets them deal their increased (d8s) hidden strike damage as a swift action to a grappled opponent.
EDIT: Another interesting thing about the Strangler's version of Sneak Attack is that you never actually need to pin the opponent to get those sneak attack dice. You get them when you pin the target, and you get them whenever you grapple to deal damage. I only need the pin to be able to get the hidden strike damage, and to keep the target from attacking. Otherwise I could go straight to dealing damage and would still get the Strangler sneak attack dice. But hidden strike would not apply in that situation, because the target would not be denied their dex.
|
|
Like I said a while back, I'll take it to the rules forum before finalizing the build. Or at least ask my local GMs.
One point though, in response to this:
Combat Maneuvers happen in melee, and they are attacks, but I don't think they qualify as melee attacks, frustrating as that sounds. I believe that "melee attack" refers only to the attack action that is a Standard Action except that in certain cases, such as off hand attacks and extra attacks awarded by a high BAB, you can add more when you take the Full Attack Action.
Combat maneuvers performed with a weapon (disarm, trip, and sunder) are explicitly "melee attacks." Disarm and sunder are called out specifically under the Melee Attack section. This is pulled from PFSRD, which sites the Melee Tactics Toolbox.
Melee Attack: While a melee attack isn’t an action type itself, many options and other rules affect melee attacks. Some combat options (such as the disarm and sunder combat maneuvers) can be used anytime you make a melee attack, including attacks of opportunity. These options can’t be combined with each other (a single melee attack can be a disarm or sunder combat maneuver, but not both), but they can be combined with options that modify an attack action or are standard or full-round actions. Some options that take or modify melee attacks have limitations—for example, Stunning Fist can be used only once per round. Source: PPC:MTT
I need to bring up my copy of Melee Tactics Tollbox and confirm this is accurate, but if it is, note a couple of things. First, "While a melee attack isn't an action type itself," which on its own would support an attack made in Melee as a melee attack, it goes on to site disarm and sunder.
Hangman doesn't allow grapple to be done in place of an attack in a full attack, but it does allow it to be done with a weapon.
The other circumstantial evidence is that the archetype forces you to select Stalker for your Vigilante Specialization. It certainly wouldn't be the first time that a broken archetype was published in a player companion, but it seems like they are intending you to use grapple and hidden strike together.
I could be wrong as well, but I feel like there's enough to support it working. Obviously I'm not going to argue it very long with a GM who disagrees. I'll point out the things I've pointed out here, and if try still rule it doesn't work, then I won't use it.
|
|
That quote was in response to your assertion that no Combat Maneuvers were melee attacks. I acknowledged the difference between Grapple (even through Hangman), and the others.
Let's back up a little, though, because I've gone pretty far down the rabbit hole of accepting the basic premise that a) a melee attack is something other than an attack made in melee, b) a vigilante can't get any hidden strike damage on anything but a "melee attack" as strictly defined as something that can be made instead of an attack action, and c) that grappling to damage does not normally fit into a "melee attack."
For points a and b, lets look at what happens if you are correct. If the thing that defines something as a "melee attack" is that it can be done in place of an attack action during a full-attack, then what happens to Touch Attacks? What about Vital Strike? What about a Charge? Without looking at any of those specifically, none of them can be performed as part of a full-attack action. Now, they might say to make a single melee attack. Charge does. Vital Strike does not. Vital Strike just says "when you use the attack action." Does that mean that hidden strike could be delivered with a Charge, but not a Vital Strike? Touch attack says that "you make a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee)." That's not quite saying you make a melee attack, and a normal Touch Attack cannot be combined with a full-attack action (though some creatures and abilities turn normal melee attacks into touch attacks). So that one is a little more ambiguous in a strict reading of the rule.
But I think we probably both agree that you would be able to deal hidden strike damage on any of those options.
To further define melee attack, let's take a look at the Cover rules, which read:
When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has cover if any line from any corner of your square to the target's square goes through a wall (including a low wall). When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.
If a Grapple is not a "melee attack," does that mean that I don't take cover penalties on a Grapple check? I'm pretty sure we both agree that I would take the penalties. In this instance, "melee attack" is being used to refer to an attack made in melee, not the stricter sense of "melee attack" as a defined term. It's my belief that it is the same situation with Hidden Strike.
Now lets look at point c. Grapple, under Damage, has this to say:
Damage
You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
Note what I've bolded. "An attack made with." Would an attack made with a light weapon deal hidden strike damage to an opponent denied their DEX? Yes. Do I think that they meant unarmed strikes to function differently than using a light weapon? No. Are unarmed strikes a light weapon? Yes.
So, anyway, I don't think that it was intentional to limit Vigilantes in the way that you do. I think the use of "melee attack" most likely meant an attack made in melee (that deals damage). I also don't think that "melee attack" is as strongly defined as you think it is. And, on top of all of that, Grapple says to "inflict damage on your target equal to... an unarmed strike... or an attack made with... a light or one-handed weapon." An attack made with a light or one-handed weapon is a "melee attack." An unarmed strike is a "melee attack." You deal damage equal to them, which means that you add all modifiers that would affect those attacks. Power Attack, Piranha Strike, Sneak Attack, and/or Hidden Strike.