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Yeah, it's a scroll of create greater demiplane.
But on a more serious note, assuming you want a once per day item the formula suggest it should cost about 62,000 gp.
Of course, you should really just check with your GM because I wouldn't allow it, especially not if you're using it for crafting.
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Flagged to movement to general forum.
I read the OP within a minute of its posting, and was going to write exactly what you wrote, but then I thought to myself "Claude's a regular poster, and he's active in the PFS Forum. I'm sure he'll see what he's done and delete his thread. I'd better not post anything so it can be deleted", and then I see three new comments, Lol.
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What you need is a scroll with enough variations of create demiplane to get the traits you want, a scroll of permanency and an item of plane shift 1/day. This way you get a permanent demiplane with the effects you want. Overall it should be a little cheaper, and it gives you the nice effect of being able to leave stuff at home.
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Flagged to movement to general forum.
But, sure. It's a "spell(s)-in-a-can" item. The cost is going to be quite exorbitant if you want it to be reusable. If you are willing to limit it to once per week or longer it will merely be very expensive.
Yeah, I meant for this to be in the rules forum. I just had too many tabs open and thought I was in a different one :/.
Flagged to movement to general forum.I read the OP within a minute of its posting, and was going to write exactly what you wrote, but then I thought to myself "Claude's a regular poster, and he's active in the PFS Forum. I'm sure he'll see what he's done and delete his thread. I'd better not post anything so it can be deleted", and then I see three new comments, Lol.
I just fired off a quick thread before lunch, just wasn't paying close enough attention until I got back and noticed the thread wasn't in the rules forum :(.
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I peg the cost of a command word activated, once-per-day item at 104,220.
You actually need two castings of a demiplane-creating spell. One to create it and one to give it the timeless trait. But you can get by with lesser create demiplane to make it and greaterfor timeless.
Oh, two. When I'd first read it I thought it came with a trait on its own and subsequent castings added additional traits. I'll have to add that to my considerations.
What you need is a scroll with enough variations of create demiplane to get the traits you want, a scroll of permanency and an item of plane shift 1/day. This way you get a permanent demiplane with the effects you want. Overall it should be a little cheaper, and it gives you the nice effect of being able to leave stuff at home.
Ah, I hadn't considered an item of plane shift 1/day with just a permanent plane.
I'm not exactly worried about the GM saying no, it's definitely his prerogative, but he's a very lenient GM and this is also a mythic campaign so the standards kind of don't apply here.
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Ah, I hadn't considered an item of plane shift 1/day with just a permanent plane.I'm not exactly worried about the GM saying no, it's definitely his prerogative, but he's a very lenient GM and this is also a mythic campaign so the standards kind of don't apply here.
Well, when you're talking demiplanes then it's usually a pretty powerful campaign. :)
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Specifically with Greater Demiplane it's a 9th level spell.
But whoever pointed out that you should really use scrolls of create greater demiplane and permanency and make an item to plane shift there is correct.
I actually had just thought about the fact that create demiplane spells don't actually move you to the demiplane, only create it, so you need plane shift anyways.
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What Bob said. The best you can do consistently if flowing time, which will get you a 2:1 gain. Erratic time could do better, but it's even odds you'll do a lot worse.
One blatantly exploitative thing you could do (assuming your DM will allow it, I wouldn't) would be get a timeless plane, cast time stop while you are there. At that point you have infinite time and don't have to worry about the negative effects of time catching up with you. You will, however, need a way to escape when you're done (dispel, plane shift, or another greater demiplane spell).
I'd be surprised if it were allowed, it's super cheesy.
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I mean.....
Technically (technically) the table given is just an example.
Erratic Time: Some planes have time that slows down and speeds up, so an individual may lose or gain time as he moves between such planes and any others. To the denizens of such a plane, time flows naturally and the shift is unnoticed. The following is provided as an example.
So, (technically) you could create your own table, with a 99% chance of 1 year=1 round, and a 1% chance that 1 month = 1 round.
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I mean.....
Technically (technically) the table given is just an example.
Erratic Time: Some planes have time that slows down and speeds up, so an individual may lose or gain time as he moves between such planes and any others. To the denizens of such a plane, time flows naturally and the shift is unnoticed. The following is provided as an example.So, (technically) you could create your own table, with a 99% chance of 1 year=1 round, and a 1% chance that 1 month = 1 round.
Yeah, but that's a DM tool rather than a player tool. Nowhere does it indicate that CGD lets you design a table for erratic time.
And at that point the DM might as well just houserule how timeless works and skip the shenanigans.
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So for being able to craft stuff, I'd like to create an item that can conjure up a timeless a demiplane on demand so I can hop in, create something, then hop back out with minimal "real world" time loss. Do the crafting rules support making such an item?No, because the spell can't make such an item. Timeless just means that time stops for stuff on the plane, outside time flows normally and any stopped effects "catch up" with the real world once you go back. The best you can get out of a demiplane is double time (time flows twice as fast as the outside world) or erratic time (and hope you don't get "1 round in demiplane equals one day outside").On planes with this trait, time still passes, but the effects of time are diminished. How the timeless trait affects certain activities or conditions such as hunger, thirst, aging, the effects of poison, and healing varies from plane to plane. The danger of a timeless plane is that once an individual leaves such a plane for one where time flows normally, conditions such as hunger and aging occur retroactively. If a plane is timeless with respect to magic, any spell cast with a noninstantaneous duration is permanent until dispelled.
Ah yes, that's what I meant. I saw the link at the end "see time" and thought those were all different properties for the "timeless" trait. I did definitely mean "erratic".
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Heh. I wonder what would happen, exactly, if you used Maximize Spell on an erratic time effect of a create greater demiplane... ;D
(Hint: Don't try to sneak this one past your GM. Just... just don't. Talk about it, first...)
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I mean.....
Technically (technically) the table given is just an example.
Erratic Time: Some planes have time that slows down and speeds up, so an individual may lose or gain time as he moves between such planes and any others. To the denizens of such a plane, time flows naturally and the shift is unnoticed. The following is provided as an example.So, (technically) you could create your own table, with a 99% chance of 1 year=1 round, and a 1% chance that 1 month = 1 round.
Yeah, but that's a DM tool rather than a player tool. Nowhere does it indicate that CGD lets you design a table for erratic time.
And at that point the DM might as well just houserule how timeless works and skip the shenanigans.
Agree with Isonaroc on this but also want to add:
When examples are provided in stuff like this, they are also suggesting appropriate power levels. Yes, it has been done prior to Pathfinder. I am sure it is being done at some tables all the time. I can tell you that this schtick was being dome before hardcover gamebooks when magic item creation was mostly homebrew on mimeograph fanzines.
Heh. I wonder what would happen, exactly, if you used Maximize Spell on an erratic time effect of a create greater demiplane... ;D
(Hint: Don't try to sneak this one past your GM. Just... just don't. Talk about it, first...)
Why yes, I liked this idea of mine so much I favorited it and am quoting it, for my records, later, thank you~! XD
Actually, for item creation as well as awesome R&R purposes, you want create greater demiplane to provide flowing time as follows:
On some planes, the flow of time is consistently faster or slower. One may travel to another plane, spend a year there, and then return to the Material Plane to find that only 6 seconds have elapsed.
Characters still age and such, but they do so in very safe circumstances. Bold emphasis mine.
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Actually, for item creation as well as awesome R&R purposes, you want create greater demiplane to provide flowing time as follows:
On some planes, the flow of time is consistently faster or slower. One may travel to another plane, spend a year there, and then return to the Material Plane to find that only 6 seconds have elapsed.
By selecting this feature, you may make your plane have the erratic time, flowing time (half or double normal time), or timeless trait (see Time).
"Half or double normal time" are the only flowing time options available to players making their own planes.
Although if you could find another plane that has the flowing time rate you want, you can plane shift there whenever you please. (But watch out for primitives in the area who might suddenly evolve into a technologically advanced civilization when your back is turned.)
By default, sure. Variant spells exist and should be easy enough to research once you have the default spell at hand.
Sure. But Greater Demiplane is a 9th level spell. You're wanting a more powerful version that can create exponentially greater time disparities, so that's ought to be at least 11th level.
(Technically, if you presuppose the Maximize spell (+) Erratic time traits stack, it'd be a 12th level spell; i.e. "Achievable with a single rod you can find all over the place." ;D)
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Variant in this case is still 9th level. All this variant would do is the 1 year in-demiplane = 6 seconds' time on the Material Plane element of flowing time. ;)
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(Technically, if you presuppose the Maximize spell (+) Erratic time traits stack, it'd be a 12th level spell; i.e. "Achievable with a single rod you can find all over the place." ;D)
Nice!
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Variant in this case is still 9th level. All this variant would do is the 1 year in-demiplane = 6 seconds' time on the Material Plane element of flowing time. ;)
I'd always taken Greater Create Demiplane being capped at 1/2 time to double time to imply that that was the limit of mortal magic. To do better than that you need to go beyond mortal magic - like a demigod controlling its divine realm.
Maximize spell + random roll chart for erratic time actually working together would have bizarre implications. Could you maximize a confusion to always get the "attack nearest target" result? Could you maximize a teleport to always get a mishap?
In practice, your first step to researching that variant is asking the GM if he's cool with you having infinite downtime. If you're GM, then perhaps ask the group at large whether they'd be comfortable with having such a spell available.
Fairness gets weird when the rules arbiter himself wants something that's out there =P
As to the OP's question - a reusable Create Greater Demiplane item feels like a minor artifact rather than a standard item, and should probably be produced through some sort of bad-ass quest rather than by the crafting rules.
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Variant in this case is still 9th level. All this variant would do is the 1 year in-demiplane = 6 seconds' time on the Material Plane element of flowing time. ;)
So a variant of Haste that makes characters five million times as fast instead of about twice as fast would still only be 3rd level?
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Variant in this case is still 9th level. All this variant would do is the 1 year in-demiplane = 6 seconds' time on the Material Plane element of flowing time. ;)So a variant of Haste that makes characters five million times as fast instead of about twice as fast would still only be 3rd level?
That is not implied as an option by haste. Comparing hand grenades to nukes is a bit silly. They both blow things up. One operates on a much vaster scale than the other.
It is implied as an option per create greater demiplane, per "(see Time)", which is attached to the 'timeless' portion. A variant based on an existing spell that reduces vast flexibility down to an extremely narrow, singular purpose is not going to increase the spell level. Especially since its use is out-of-combat exclusive.
As with any researched spell the GM is final arbiter.
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Variant in this case is still 9th level. All this variant would do is the 1 year in-demiplane = 6 seconds' time on the Material Plane element of flowing time. ;)I'd always taken Greater Create Demiplane being capped at 1/2 time to double time to imply that that was the limit of mortal magic. To do better than that you need to go beyond mortal magic - like a demigod controlling its divine realm.
Maximize spell + random roll chart for erratic time actually working together would have bizarre implications. Could you maximize a confusion to always get the "attack nearest target" result? Could you maximize a teleport to always get a mishap?
In practice, your first step to researching that variant is asking the GM if he's cool with you having infinite downtime. If you're GM, then perhaps ask the group at large whether they'd be comfortable with having such a spell available.
Fairness gets weird when the rules arbiter himself wants something that's out there =P
As to the OP's question - a reusable Create Greater Demiplane item feels like a minor artifact rather than a standard item, and should probably be produced through some sort of bad-ass quest rather than by the crafting rules.
The thing that bugs me about making a unique, player-researched spell suddenly widely available is that it smacks of cheese on the GM's end. If the character elects to sell it far and wide, the onus is on them for distributing the spell into the wider world.
If the spell is unique to its creator, the only way to get it should be to acquire it from them. This concept should have been the case for spells such as blood money.
"This spell is available from [specific location] until in-game year ####, when it is presumed that the adventurers that first recovered it make available to the wider world. Acquiring this spell costs [amount] of gp from [whichever] cities."
or
"This spell is presented from [source]. It is not commonly known and must be researched at [insert DCs, time requirements and gp cost]."
Heck, they make it plain that the "rare cantrips" from the Paizo blog is not included gratis in every arcane casters' spell list.
This is one thing that 2e handled well.
You are making one aspect of the spell literally two and a half million times as powerful. Removing flexibility does not balance this out. If I make a new spell that removes all the options from Summon Monster 9 except summoning a Trumpet Archon, that makes it less flexible. But it does not mean I get to make a Summon Two Million Trumpet Archons spell.
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(But watch out for primitives in the area who might suddenly evolve into a technologically advanced civilization when your back is turned.)
This reminds me of an excellent sci-fi novel or novella that described the ascendancy of a civilization on a neutron star during the time it was being observed by a single human crew aboard a science vessel, largely written from the perspective of the inhabitants of the neutron star. In the end those inhabitants 'ascended' to a higher form of being, leaving behind a parting gift of knowledge for the amazed humans in the form of encoded/encrypted knowledge.
The more sinister implications of evolving amoeba monsters becoming adventurer-eating intelligent spell-casting shoggoths pouring forth from their own permanent demiplane gives me much amusement.
A non-permanent version lasting 20 days 'only' provides 288,000 years of evolution ...
*evil laughter ensues*
*wipes the tears of joy away*
Okay, let's shelve that concept. It might make a nasty story hook at some point. :)
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You are making one aspect of the spell literally two and a half million times as powerful. Removing flexibility does not balance this out. If I make a new spell that removes all the options from Summon Monster 9 except summoning a Trumpet Archon, that makes it less flexible. But it does not mean I get to make a Summon Two Million Trumpet Archons spell.
Fair enough, good points on the scale going out-of-whack! The doubled time standard usage is generally going to be good enough for most uses. I stand corrected. :)
This is what discussing such concepts is for. Not everyone is going to grok all of the implications of a proposed spell out of the gate. And there are some horrific ones (see above).
As an aside, summon trumpet archon variant is justifiably of lower level than the standard summon monster XI. One which is probably more useful that most of the 'level 9' summoned monsters are. ;)
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This reminds me of an excellent sci-fi novel or novella that described the ascendancy of a civilization on a neutron star during the time it was being observed by a single human crew aboard a science vessel, largely written from the perspective of the inhabitants of the neutron star.
Dragon's Egg, by Robert L. Forward.
You are making one aspect of the spell literally two and a half million times as powerful. Removing flexibility does not balance this out. If I make a new spell that removes all the options from Summon Monster 9 except summoning a Trumpet Archon, that makes it less flexible. But it does not mean I get to make a Summon Two Million Trumpet Archons spell.
Quick question: you're referring to the haste variant you () mentioned, right?
'Cause having 14,400 planar rounds per material round () =/= two million times, two-and-a-half million times, or anything close to that.
Point in fact, it equals 7,200 times! That's still a lot of times, mind you, but I figure it's better to clarify what, exactly, we're talking about, rather than going with hyperbole - we're getting into numbers that are large and ridiculous enough without actually making our points weaker through hyperbole.
That said, haste is a third level spell that "makes you about twice as fast" (your words), which also gives you +1 attack, AC and reflex, and an extra attack on a full attack any given round. But we'll focus on the fast, thing, as that's the variant you're interested in!
At it's max, haste grants +30 ft./round, and lasts for your CL rounds (that's not really important, but I'll get back to that in a minute).
By contrast, teleport is a 5th level spell (so +2 spell levels) that allows you to go 100 miles/level as a standard action (so, basically +100 miles/round). That's, what, 100*5,280 ft.? That's about 528,000 feet per CL. Still not a million times, but getting closer, at a very solid 17,600 times longer for a nice +2 spell level. Sure, a standard is more than a move, and sure there are attendant risks - buuuu~uuut, as you pointed out, there are definitely risks with said uber-plane time, too, and you need to invest more to get that particular trick than you do to avoid it; for example, acquiring a rod makes this a swift action, so... still get all your kicks in.
Or, of course, for the low-low price of +4 spell levels, with a greater teleport there is no range limit, at all, and thus you gain infinite increase in the benefit of the first (and it can even be as a swift action with a rod!).
Again, this is not to say that maximizing the plane is the "correct" way to rule it (as Zhanger has a good point: yet, per RAW, the answer is "yes"*), nor should it be expected to work in any given table. Hence my advice: don't try to slip this past your GM. Ever.
Further, a problem that hasn't been noted yet: it's suuuuuuper easy for someone to get "lost" in their own long-term time demiplane: time still passes for them, and they will age at a substantially faster rate by hopping into and out of their plane than their brethren. So that's weird!
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Other than that, carry on!
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My 'two and a half million times more powerful' was based on a proposed variant of the spell that did this:
"One may travel to another plane, spend a year there, and then return to the Material Plane to find that only 6 seconds have elapsed"
as opposed to the standard spell which gives you this this:
"half or double normal time"
According to Google, there are 31,557,600 seconds in a year.
One year = 6 seconds is a time compression ratio of 5,259,600 to 1.
This is 2,629,800 times better than ratio of 2 to 1.
My 'two and a half million times more powerful' was based on a proposed variant of the spell that did this:
"One may travel to another plane, spend a year there, and then return to the Material Plane to find that only 6 seconds have elapsed"
as opposed to the standard spell which gives you this this:
"half or double normal time"According to Google, there are 31,557,600 seconds in a year.
One year = 6 seconds is a time compression ratio of 5,259,600 to 1.
This is 2,629,800 times better than ratio of 2 to 1.
Sweet!
Thanks!
That was what I was missing!
So, that fits pretty well right into the (relative) "middle" with the +2 SL ~ at 17k*<value> and +4 SL ~ at ∞*<value>, so that's kind of a really interesting data point! Thanks!
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