Build Comparison: Strength Magus Vs. Strength Kensai


Advice


So I will be starting a 3rd level game, and I wanted to see what the community's thoughts would be on the merits of a Strength Magus against a Strength Kensai. I've normally played Dex Magi and wanted to change it up, and with that in mind what differences would I be looking at in terms of:

AC
Feat Choices/Options
damage
Spellcasting ability

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

At low levels, Kensai is not so great, because its diminished spellcasting hurts, its canny defense is not better than a chain shirt yet, and because its low-level abilities are easily duplicated by feats.

Kensai shines at level 11-13 and up; but at level 3 straight Magus is the better pick.


Now I have heard that Kensai's perfect strike ability combined with the burst enchancments is very good. In terms of its low level abilities, which ones can be duplicated by feats?

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

MagicA wrote:
Now I have heard that Kensai's perfect strike ability combined with the burst enchancments is very good.

It's not, because Perfect Strike explicitly states it doesn't work with enchantments.

Quote:
In terms of its low level abilities, which ones can be duplicated by feats?

Pretty much all of them:

Canny Defense => Light Armor Training
Weapon Focus => Weapon Focus
Iajitsu => Improved Initiative
Superior Reflexes => Combat Reflexes

Mind you, not all of these are feats you necessarily want on your Magus, so having the choice is nice. Kensai is also down a feat-or-equivalent from spell recall, knowledge pool, and one arcana slot. Perhaps surprisingly, there aren't any feats that particularly stand out for fighter training.

So yeah, Kensai doesn't really pick up until above level 10.

Scarab Sages

Level 3 Strength-over-Dexterity Kensai? Funny you should ask, here's mine!


So in terms of AC, what would I be looking at comparing regular Magus vs kensai? Cause I've heard that kensai can get pretty crazy.


As well as, does the armor proficiency that a regular magus get trounce the potential AC a str kensai would get from canny defense?


MagicA wrote:
As well as, does the armor proficiency that a regular magus get trounce the potential AC a str kensai would get from canny defense?

It gets complicated if you add a wand of mage armor - that equals a standard chain shirt, at least while it's up, and canny defense will stack with it. If you're doing much travelling though this will mean you're usually without it when attacked (as opposed to doing the attacking).

The other thing to consider is that the spell storing property is great for the action economy of a magus in melee. You could still get an armored kilt or similar, but I think you have to use the same effect for armor and special properties - you couldn't use 4 AC from mage armor and the spell storing effect from a +1 spell storing armored kilt at the same time.

The AC of a strength kensai may be OK but it doesn't seem likely to be crazy.


So far it seems with the reduced spell casting, lack of spell recall, and loss of armor proficiency, it seems to me that the Regular Magus has more going for it than the kensai.


Whats the point buy? I've played both options I noticed I needed a higher point buy (or at least I felt I did.) for the Kensai but the kensai was a lot of fun. It does take some levels to get there. Magus seemed better at lower levels.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Bear in mind that the Magus's best defense is not so much his armor class, but rather spells like Mirror Image / Displacement / Greater Invis. Plus the riposte ability from Flamboyant Arcana.


True spells tend to be more useful than armor.

Also the point buy is 20

So with that in mind, what is it about the kensai that makes it a good archetype in people's minds?


If you are looking at damage, myrmidarch is probably #1 due to weapon training. For effectiveness, probably eldritch archer. For low cost flight - magic warrior.

For pure AC, Kapenia dancer is better than kensai as if you dip another class, you can wear armor and keep your INT to AC (pfs campaign clarifications).


The Kensai makes for a great crit-fisher. Starting with a 18-20 crit weapon and then going from there, you can get pretty frequent crits and when combined with a spellstrike than can be very impressive damage.

I do think though that Kensai call out for a DEX build. I could see a 12, or even a 14 str so you have enough that you aren't worried about DEX to Damage, but with very little armor, I think you will want a very solid dex as well, If I was going to build a STR magus, I wouldn't go Kensai. Hex Magus or Staff Magus could be fun STR builds though.


My complaint against the Kensai archetype is the Diminished Spell Casting & loss of Spell Recall.

While the Kensai is stronger as a straight up melee fighter, you just loose the flexibility that a plain Magus brings.

...if your party does not have a arcane caster, think you'd enjoy the added flexibility the magus brings. If there is another arcane caster, depends on if you want to play a specialist or a generalist.


So from what it sounds like that it's better to do a Strength build with the Vanilla Magus than going Kensai.


@nicholas storm

how does the myrmidarch compare to the regular magus?


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MagicA wrote:

@nicholas storm

how does the myrmidarch compare to the regular magus?

The diminished spellcasting and loss of spell recall/improved spell recall does hurt, but you're trading spell versatility for weapon and armor training, which thanks to advanced weapon and armor training options, are actually quite nice.


avr wrote:

...

The other thing to consider is that the spell storing property is great for the action economy of a magus in melee. You could still get an armored kilt or similar, but I think you have to use the same effect for armor and special properties - you couldn't use 4 AC from mage armor and the spell storing effect from a +1 spell storing armored kilt at the same time.
...

Armored Kilts are complicated beasties, but there isn't any problem with wearing, say, a +1 Spell Storing Haramaki while using Mage Armor to get both Spell Storing and the +4 Armor Bonus.


Dark Midian wrote:
MagicA wrote:

@nicholas storm

how does the myrmidarch compare to the regular magus?

The diminished spellcasting and loss of spell recall/improved spell recall does hurt, but you're trading spell versatility for weapon and armor training, which thanks to advanced weapon and armor training options, are actually quite nice.

I agree with all of that. If you kind of like the idea of playing a Fighter but hate their lack of Spells and Skills, then the Myrmidarch can be a good choice. With fewer Spells per day you probably want to invest more into self-buffing spells and longer term attack spells like Frostbite rather than the classic Shocking Grasp build, but I usually keep a few Shocking Grasps (some with Reach Spell for use with Ranged Spellstrike) in reserve.

Because they have a lot of options that improve both melee and ranged attacks and because they have Ranged Spellstrike, Myrmidarchs function well as switch-hitters in the mold of Treantmonk's Switch-Hitter Ranger. If you are using Treantmonk's tactics, you need very little investment to make your infrequent ranged attacks meaningful.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Myrm, like kensai, is another archetype for levels 10 and up, because that's when weapon training becomes relevant. The difference is that Kensai is very good at high levels whereas Myrm is barely passable. At low levels, you should really avoid both.

The easier way to get weapon training on a Magus is to use variant multiclassing. If you are looking for damage, Kensai is better than myrm. If you are looking for switch hitting, the regular Magus does it better than myrm. If you are looking for versatility, you probably should avoid diminished spellcasting.


@Kurald Galain

So what does the Kensai do past level 10 that the regular magus can't do or do as well?

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

MagicA wrote:
So what does the Kensai do past level 10 that the regular magus can't do or do as well?

At high levels, the Kensai crits more often, deals more damage or other effects on a crit, and can get a higher armor class. The rest is icing.

On the other hand, you pay for this with diminished spellcasting and the lack of spell recall. The catch is that the drawbacks start right at level 1, and the bonuses start around level 10.


Kurald Galain wrote:


At high levels, the Kensai crits more often, deals more damage or other effects on a crit, and can get a higher armor class.

This, while true, is a bit misleading.

The Kensai "Threatens" the same amount as the Magus. Kensai just have a better chance to convert that threat into a crit.


@ kurald galain
How does the kensai get higher AC? Isn't it cheaper to enhance heavy armor (like celestial plate) and buy other items than it is to boost intelligence enough to compensate for the lack of armor?


MagicA wrote:

@ kurald galain

How does the kensai get higher AC? Isn't it cheaper to enhance heavy armor (like celestial plate) and buy other items than it is to boost intelligence enough to compensate for the lack of armor?

Cheaper yes, but your ceiling is lower with armor.

Lets take your celestial plate as an example. Full plate gives you +9, and celestial plate has a max dex of 6, for a total of +15 to AC (leaving out the enhancement bonus, which is a wash.)

A Dex based Kensai (which almost all are for this reason) can usually expect to have 24s in both DEX and INT somewhere around level 10-13 which gives him a +7 to AC for each, add in a haramaki or ceremonial silk armor and we are at the +15 from celestial plate. But going forward, we are going to be gaining more from probably a few more enhance bonuses, innate bonuses from wishes or tomes and of course a few more attribute bumps from leveling. Having 30s in INT and DEX would not be unexpected for a 20th level Kensai, so we are looking at our 'armor' being +21 (before enhancement bonus) at that point.


@dave justus

Fair point, however the cost to boost dex high enough to make up for that ends up being more expensive than enhancing armor (tomes, belts, etc.) before you even factor in the cost of other items (rings, amulets, etc.)


also I'm looking at a STR build not a DEX build


Would any of the advanced weapon training options be a good fit for the magus?

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