| MagicA |
So I will be starting a 3rd level game, and I wanted to see what the community's thoughts would be on the merits of a Strength Magus against a Strength Kensai. I've normally played Dex Magi and wanted to change it up, and with that in mind what differences would I be looking at in terms of:
AC
Feat Choices/Options
damage
Spellcasting ability
Kurald Galain
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Now I have heard that Kensai's perfect strike ability combined with the burst enchancments is very good.
It's not, because Perfect Strike explicitly states it doesn't work with enchantments.
In terms of its low level abilities, which ones can be duplicated by feats?
Pretty much all of them:
Canny Defense => Light Armor TrainingWeapon Focus => Weapon Focus
Iajitsu => Improved Initiative
Superior Reflexes => Combat Reflexes
Mind you, not all of these are feats you necessarily want on your Magus, so having the choice is nice. Kensai is also down a feat-or-equivalent from spell recall, knowledge pool, and one arcana slot. Perhaps surprisingly, there aren't any feats that particularly stand out for fighter training.
So yeah, Kensai doesn't really pick up until above level 10.
I'm Hiding In Your Closet
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Level 3 Strength-over-Dexterity Kensai? Funny you should ask, here's mine!
| avr |
As well as, does the armor proficiency that a regular magus get trounce the potential AC a str kensai would get from canny defense?
It gets complicated if you add a wand of mage armor - that equals a standard chain shirt, at least while it's up, and canny defense will stack with it. If you're doing much travelling though this will mean you're usually without it when attacked (as opposed to doing the attacking).
The other thing to consider is that the spell storing property is great for the action economy of a magus in melee. You could still get an armored kilt or similar, but I think you have to use the same effect for armor and special properties - you couldn't use 4 AC from mage armor and the spell storing effect from a +1 spell storing armored kilt at the same time.
The AC of a strength kensai may be OK but it doesn't seem likely to be crazy.
| nicholas storm |
If you are looking at damage, myrmidarch is probably #1 due to weapon training. For effectiveness, probably eldritch archer. For low cost flight - magic warrior.
For pure AC, Kapenia dancer is better than kensai as if you dip another class, you can wear armor and keep your INT to AC (pfs campaign clarifications).
| Dave Justus |
The Kensai makes for a great crit-fisher. Starting with a 18-20 crit weapon and then going from there, you can get pretty frequent crits and when combined with a spellstrike than can be very impressive damage.
I do think though that Kensai call out for a DEX build. I could see a 12, or even a 14 str so you have enough that you aren't worried about DEX to Damage, but with very little armor, I think you will want a very solid dex as well, If I was going to build a STR magus, I wouldn't go Kensai. Hex Magus or Staff Magus could be fun STR builds though.
| Matt2VK |
My complaint against the Kensai archetype is the Diminished Spell Casting & loss of Spell Recall.
While the Kensai is stronger as a straight up melee fighter, you just loose the flexibility that a plain Magus brings.
...if your party does not have a arcane caster, think you'd enjoy the added flexibility the magus brings. If there is another arcane caster, depends on if you want to play a specialist or a generalist.
| Dark Midian |
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@nicholas storm
how does the myrmidarch compare to the regular magus?
The diminished spellcasting and loss of spell recall/improved spell recall does hurt, but you're trading spell versatility for weapon and armor training, which thanks to advanced weapon and armor training options, are actually quite nice.
| Gisher |
...
The other thing to consider is that the spell storing property is great for the action economy of a magus in melee. You could still get an armored kilt or similar, but I think you have to use the same effect for armor and special properties - you couldn't use 4 AC from mage armor and the spell storing effect from a +1 spell storing armored kilt at the same time.
...
Armored Kilts are complicated beasties, but there isn't any problem with wearing, say, a +1 Spell Storing Haramaki while using Mage Armor to get both Spell Storing and the +4 Armor Bonus.
| Gisher |
MagicA wrote:The diminished spellcasting and loss of spell recall/improved spell recall does hurt, but you're trading spell versatility for weapon and armor training, which thanks to advanced weapon and armor training options, are actually quite nice.@nicholas storm
how does the myrmidarch compare to the regular magus?
I agree with all of that. If you kind of like the idea of playing a Fighter but hate their lack of Spells and Skills, then the Myrmidarch can be a good choice. With fewer Spells per day you probably want to invest more into self-buffing spells and longer term attack spells like Frostbite rather than the classic Shocking Grasp build, but I usually keep a few Shocking Grasps (some with Reach Spell for use with Ranged Spellstrike) in reserve.
Because they have a lot of options that improve both melee and ranged attacks and because they have Ranged Spellstrike, Myrmidarchs function well as switch-hitters in the mold of Treantmonk's Switch-Hitter Ranger. If you are using Treantmonk's tactics, you need very little investment to make your infrequent ranged attacks meaningful.
Kurald Galain
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Myrm, like kensai, is another archetype for levels 10 and up, because that's when weapon training becomes relevant. The difference is that Kensai is very good at high levels whereas Myrm is barely passable. At low levels, you should really avoid both.
The easier way to get weapon training on a Magus is to use variant multiclassing. If you are looking for damage, Kensai is better than myrm. If you are looking for switch hitting, the regular Magus does it better than myrm. If you are looking for versatility, you probably should avoid diminished spellcasting.
Kurald Galain
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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So what does the Kensai do past level 10 that the regular magus can't do or do as well?
At high levels, the Kensai crits more often, deals more damage or other effects on a crit, and can get a higher armor class. The rest is icing.
On the other hand, you pay for this with diminished spellcasting and the lack of spell recall. The catch is that the drawbacks start right at level 1, and the bonuses start around level 10.
| Matt2VK |
At high levels, the Kensai crits more often, deals more damage or other effects on a crit, and can get a higher armor class.
This, while true, is a bit misleading.
The Kensai "Threatens" the same amount as the Magus. Kensai just have a better chance to convert that threat into a crit.| Dave Justus |
@ kurald galain
How does the kensai get higher AC? Isn't it cheaper to enhance heavy armor (like celestial plate) and buy other items than it is to boost intelligence enough to compensate for the lack of armor?
Cheaper yes, but your ceiling is lower with armor.
Lets take your celestial plate as an example. Full plate gives you +9, and celestial plate has a max dex of 6, for a total of +15 to AC (leaving out the enhancement bonus, which is a wash.)
A Dex based Kensai (which almost all are for this reason) can usually expect to have 24s in both DEX and INT somewhere around level 10-13 which gives him a +7 to AC for each, add in a haramaki or ceremonial silk armor and we are at the +15 from celestial plate. But going forward, we are going to be gaining more from probably a few more enhance bonuses, innate bonuses from wishes or tomes and of course a few more attribute bumps from leveling. Having 30s in INT and DEX would not be unexpected for a 20th level Kensai, so we are looking at our 'armor' being +21 (before enhancement bonus) at that point.