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so, I've started to run into a slight conundrum. I'm worried that my hell's rebels players will start to run into some serious problems later on. The issue is that the highest charisma score among them belongs to the 7 int 7 wis paladin, along with a fighter, witch, and ranger, all with dumped charisma scores. now, I'll preface this by saying the witch has only played one session thus far and perhaps they will change the game so to speak, but I'm worried that the party's solution generally leads them to kill first and ask questions later. This has already gotten them into trouble once (flubbing their bluff checks in front of Warden Sabo while rescuing the Hellknights) and I'm worried it will make the campaign significantly harder for them.
I guess what I'm trying to say in all my ramblings is this, how much trouble are my players in as the campaign goes on? can a less subtle party still succeed at later points in the story without a great deal of adjustment? or will I need to make some heavy modifications?
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How interested are they in the setting and priorities of the AP? While Hell's Rebels is generally regarded as one of the best APs, some people prefer a more combat heavy campaign.
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They seem to genuinely enjoy some of the non-combat, the issue is that their characters simply aren't really designed for non-combat.
That leads me to another question actually, seeing as how Octavio asked the party to get the hellknights out as a way to prove they can move with subtly, how necessary is Octavio to the rest of the campaign?
Octavio's motivation as written in the AP is to use the rescue of the armigers as proof of the Silver Ravens subtlety, but your group doesn't seem stealth or persuasion focused and it seems unnecessary to punish them for that. It's a small modification of Octavio to have him be impressed if the pc's perform the rescue with guile but even if not, be grateful his people are rescued - something he could not do on his own.
He has one key role in the AP (as I understand)...
To tell the pc's about the Lucky Bones so that it can become their base.
He and his armigers also join the Ravens as a unique ally and bonus team. It's your call whether they join the Ravens but again unless you have a specific reason to deny your pc's access to those resources, it seems reasonable to grant them simply for successfully rescuing the armigers (assuming they did after failing their bluff checks against Sabo.)
Not really as screwed as having a diplomatic party who isn't any good at combat, ironically.
Long-term ... they're indirectly pooched. The characters will be fine, but Kintargo is in for a world of hurt. I suggest reading ahead to 'the fancy dinner scene' (Chapter 4?) and especially the 'diplomacy scene' (Chapter 5?). The DCs are quite significant and are not going to be resolved easily without vast investments in elixirs they may not be able to either afford or possess the knowledge on how to make.
If you're wanting to bump up their required social skills so that they at least have a decent chance of success during those events, I'd suggest slipping in a few choice headbands of vast intellect - between four of these the PCs should sport a respectable chance of success during those plot-and-story-important scenes of the AP. Fortunately, the opportunity to do so presents itself at the end of Chapter 3, I think.
The Mad Comrade went right to the most likely trouble spots - though the fancy dinner scene is in book 3 and the major diplomacy event is early in Book 6. The pc's can't really fight their way through either encounter.
In the Book 3 scene, the NPC's they are trying to connect with significantly outclass them and engaging them in combat is highly likely to result in pc deaths and functionally "fail" the encounter. Which can have difficult consequences in just about every subsequent book. In a sneaky way, the dinner scene might be the most important encounter in the entire AP.
Failing to ally with Vyre, reduces the warnings and aid they might receive from there in Book 4 and 6 and notably hampers the primary goal of Book 5.
In the Book 6 encounter, slaying the NPC "opponents" is the same as failing the encounter. As the Mad Comrade said, the consequences of this fall on the citizens of Kintargo - for the pc's it just makes the subsequent encounters harder. And in a certain meta-game view, might diminish their overall sense of accomplishment in completing the AP.
If they fail at the negotiations with the Empire, Kintargo is going to appear much weaker as an independent nation than if they succeed at some or many of the points of negotiation.
Long-term ... they're indirectly pooched. The characters will be fine, but Kintargo is in for a world of hurt.Do these "kill first ask questions s later" characters, knowingly built over at least five levels to dump social skills, care?They might, dumped social skills doesn't necessarily mean general murderhobo sociopathy.
That said, I still think some of the above posters are overstating the importance/difficulty of Vyre and the negotiations.
Failing either/both certainly makes certain segments harder but honestly, the Banquet Points in Vyre are incredibly forgiving if you ask me (in that it's trivial to start with plenty by just coming in well dressed and with a decent gift) and even if you botch the social bits, there's still the dish eating portions that key off various physical skills that at least one person can keep afloat probably.
And even taking the critical fail with the diplomats doesn't really affect anything in game since any of the strong influence zones can be bug zapped by just exterminating the (very trivial) haunts before marching off to Hell.
True. Post-AP is an entirely different matter, however...
Yeah, Kintargo's probably going to have a bit of a population issue at the end, and Cheliax certainly won't be happy, but hey, at least most of the people are alive and free!
I just hope the party kills the Wyrmwraith before leaving for Cainia. Nothing says pyrric victory quite like beating up Barzilai and a chunk of Hell only to return to Kintargo now being a desolate wasteland full of dread wraiths.
"Uh, guys ... remember that postcard from Taldor we got a while back ... what say we join an expedition to another continent. Um ... now." *greater teleport of entire group*
Post AP depends on what you want to do. I think there have been games that end at the final die roll, so 'Freedomland' and 'Hell Mk.2' don't really matter.
Post AP depends on what you want to do. I think there have been games that end at the final die roll, so 'Freedomland' and 'Hell Mk.2' don't really matter.
Should the characters behave as such? Hell's Rebels is a poor choice for murderhoboism.
Well maybe talk to them about a character refit? Retrain and maybe toss in background skills to help round them out?
If you want them to invest magic items and feats in skills, then simply have them start RPing the recruitment phase a bit. When they have to be both convincing and accurate to their character, they might have incentive not to have all their characters as terribly awkward people no one would follow.
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so, I've started to run into a slight conundrum. I'm worried that my hell's rebels players will start to run into some serious problems later on. The issue is that the highest charisma score among them belongs to the 7 int 7 wis paladin, along with a fighter, witch, and ranger, all with dumped charisma scores. now, I'll preface this by saying the witch has only played one session thus far and perhaps they will change the game so to speak, but I'm worried that the party's solution generally leads them to kill first and ask questions later. This has already gotten them into trouble once (flubbing their bluff checks in front of Warden Sabo while rescuing the Hellknights) and I'm worried it will make the campaign significantly harder for them.
I guess what I'm trying to say in all my ramblings is this, how much trouble are my players in as the campaign goes on? can a less subtle party still succeed at later points in the story without a great deal of adjustment? or will I need to make some heavy modifications?
did you explain to them at character creation that they would need these scores?
it seems to me that there was a flaw before the game started.
The free players guide kinda makes things clear. Same as the players guide did for Skull and Shackles. Ignore the advice in the players guide at one's peril.