Proper use of Lob Shot in PFS.

[Karl Ragnarson]

Utilizing the rules stated in the Ranged Tactics Toolbox

"While making a ranged attack, you can ignore any cover bonuses to AC, including total cover, unless the target also has cover from above, such as a roof or forest canopy. When using this feat, treat your target as if it were one range increment farther away. You can’t use this feat unless you have headroom equal to at least half the attack’s range."

What is the correct usage of Lob Shot with a bow? What are the rules for its usage indoors?

I have played one PFS session where I utilized the bow taking the range increment penalty as if it were one increment farther away and as the standard height was 15 feet I was only able to utilize the feat on shots 30 feet and under.

Next time I tried to use it the ruling was that I could only use it at 100 feet. As that was the range increment's distance and 50 feet of headroom was needed. Which indoors is dependent on the type of structure.

Just trying to use the rule correctly. I figured the first one was correct as the last sentence states using half of the attack's range. And I interpret that as whatever the range of the attack take half and that is the amount of headroom you need to use it. The second example was to interpret "attack's range" as the weapons range not the range of the attack. Did not see this anwywhere else except when mentioned as magical or without a bow and they didn't cover this in either. I appreciate any help I can receive, I really wanted to use this aspect in my build.

[John Murdock]

the feat say you treat them as one range increment further not you must shoot at enemies that is at least one range increment further, and to shoot far away you need to shoot higher (since you need to overcome the cover) so you need at least half the distance in height 30 foot long = 15 foot high

[Karl Ragnarson]

John Murdock wrote:

the feat say you treat them as one range increment further not you must shoot at enemies that is at least one range increment further, and to shoot far away you need to shoot higher (since you need to overcome the cover) so you need at least half the distance in height 30 foot long = 15 foot high

Utilizing that logic does not make perfect sense, it would mean if I was indoors with a 30 foot headroom, I would be able to use the feat at 60 feet. Why am I able to shoot closer with less headroom?

[Murdock Mudeater]

From the text, the impression I get is that it doesn't work indoors or with a natural setting equivalent of a ceiling.

[Karl Ragnarson]

Murdock Mudeater wrote:

From the text, the impression I get is that it doesn't work indoors or with a natural setting equivalent of a ceiling.

In that instance I wonder why the last sentence then? In the outdoors headroom is irrelevant.

[John Murdock]

Karl Ragnarson wrote:

John Murdock wrote:

the feat say you treat them as one range increment further not you must shoot at enemies that is at least one range increment further, and to shoot far away you need to shoot higher (since you need to overcome the cover) so you need at least half the distance in height 30 foot long = 15 foot high

Utilizing that logic does not make perfect sense, it would mean if I was indoors with a 30 foot headroom, I would be able to use the feat at 60 feet. Why am I able to shoot closer with less headroom?

because normally you don't shoot very high to attain a target, a warbow can attain easily a 100 feet without having the need to aim high, with this feat you want to bypass cover so you need to shoot higher to get pass it, it can be use indoor but its very restricted and not that much useful, and to bypass a cover that is far away you need to shoot even higher, that's why you treat them as one range increment farther, but cover give 4 to AC while having the first penalty for range increment is -2 to attack (-1 with far shot) so the feat is not that useful especially at longer distance, in your place i would take another feat, especially if you are a fighter to take weapon specialization since archer lack damage.

and even when you bypass total cover you don't see the enemies so total cover (50% miss chance) against you

[Murdock Mudeater]

Karl Ragnarson wrote:

Murdock Mudeater wrote:

From the text, the impression I get is that it doesn't work indoors or with a natural setting equivalent of a ceiling.

In that instance I wonder why the last sentence then? In the outdoors headroom is irrelevant.

Trees, a battle under a bridge, things like that. Plus debates regarding if caves count as indoor or not, get entirely avoided if they don't address it as outdoors only. The headroom requirement is a good option.

With an extremely tall ceiling, it should fine too, despite being indoors. I think the space required is kinda hard to explain in the rules, especially given the varied settings and that the rules mechanics really don't account for the arrow's flight.

Basically, you shoot the arrow high into the air, in a steep arc, and when it comes back down, it will have shot at the target without travelling though the cover in between. But, yeah, good luck describing that in pathfinder rules, especially in a short feat description. I think they did the best they could.

So, for PFS, mainly outdoors only, at least with longbows. For PFS, this feat is more practical with thrown weapons and other ranged weapons with short range, since the headroom requirement is based on range.

[Talonhawke]

Still not thinking its based on the range of the weapon but the range that the target is from you.

[Karl Ragnarson]

So final answer, if I am at 15 foot head room, I can use feat at 30 and beyond and 30/60, 40/80 and so on? Or minimum distance is one range increment which requires 50 feet headroom and 100+ distance?

[Talonhawke]

not beyond but closer. The way I have always understood it is if you have 15 feet of headroom then you can use it on something up to 30 feat away.

[John Murdock]

Karl Ragnarson wrote:

So final answer, if I am at 15 foot head room, I can use feat at 30 and beyond and 30/60, 40/80 and so on? Or minimum distance is one range increment which requires 50 feet headroom and 100+ distance?

the range increment has no relevancy here except that you treat them one range away so you get the -2 on your normal distance and the other increment is -4 instead of -2 and so on.

if you shoot at 30 feet you need to be able to shoot 15 feet in the air so if there is something that is blocking you can't use the feat.

like i said the feat is not really useful, remove the +4 to AC from cover to get a -2 to hit is not really useful you can get better feat instead

[Karl Ragnarson]

John Murdock wrote:

Karl Ragnarson wrote:

So final answer, if I am at 15 foot head room, I can use feat at 30 and beyond and 30/60, 40/80 and so on? Or minimum distance is one range increment which requires 50 feet headroom and 100+ distance?

the range increment has no relevancy here except that you treat them one range away so you get the -2 on your normal distance and the other increment is -4 instead of -2 and so on.

if you shoot at 30 feet you need to be able to shoot 15 feet in the air so if there is something that is blocking you can't use the feat.

like i said the feat is not really useful, remove the +4 to AC from cover to get a -2 to hit is not really useful you can get better feat instead

Well I've got the -2 penalty taken care of, Sniper Archetype for slayer takes care of one -1 and then Hunters Sight takes care of -2, So I have no penalties with this feat. But I think I have enough discussion to take to the GMs around my area and get a consensus, I appreciate everyone's help. But if anyone has further information that would be great as this seems to still be in the grey area.

[Imbicatus]

John Murdock wrote:

like i said the feat is not really useful, remove the +4 to AC from cover to get a -2 to hit is not really useful you can get better feat instead

The feat is incredibly useful. It's not great for soft cover, it's draw is to bypass total cover, which would make you unable to target them at all. It can bypass a wind wall, bypass actual physical walls, tower shields, and so on.

[Murdock Mudeater]

Talonhawke wrote:

Still not thinking its based on the range of the weapon but the range that the target is from you.

Says you treat the target as being one range increment further away. As written, that means that if the target is phsyically 30ft away and your arrows have 110ft of range, then the target is treated as being 140ft away. You'd need 70ft of headroom for that. I see it as the arrow being shot in a high arch. That's why it can ignore cover from the front, but not above.

Otherwise, if the target is 10ft away, you have only need of 15ft of headroom, which isn't really enough room to fire the arrow "over" the target and hit them from above (not with any force anyway, not on a longbow).

So, for PFS, you usually won't be able to use this indoors. Maybe with shorter range weapons, or with exceptionally high ceilings, but normal buildings won't accomidate the headroom required to arch a shot over cover.

[John Murdock]

Imbicatus wrote:

John Murdock wrote:

like i said the feat is not really useful, remove the +4 to AC from cover to get a -2 to hit is not really useful you can get better feat instead

The feat is incredibly useful. It's not great for soft cover, it's draw is to bypass total cover, which would make you unable to target them at all. It can bypass a wind wall, bypass actual physical walls, tower shields, and so on.

its still not really that useful, total cover become total conceal (50% miss chance) i prefer to move and hit them without penalty or against cover for 1 more round, if the enemies is using tower shield to have total cover they are wasting a standard action each round to keep that total cover on only one direction so he is not a danger, like i said there are better feat

edit: and for wind wall there always Weathered Warrior feat which give a lot of benefit against wind effect and the like

[toastedamphibian]

Murdock, your reasoning is flawed. If you put en9ugh force into your shot to achieve 1/10th the maximum height you could, you have fired your arrow with 1/10th the force, so it should also do less damage.

It's a game. Describe it as ricocheting off the ceiling if that helps.

You can use it at targets at a range of up to twice the distance of your vertical clearance, and you treat the shot as though they where one increment further away (for whatever that means for your build)