OK, so small bit of info, I'm trying to build a grappler and me and my GM ran into a point of contention, of which we can BOTH see BOTH possible arguments.
In both the weapon finesse and agile maneuvers feat is an FAQ note about using Weapon Finesse for combat maneuvers (I can't find the actual Paizo FAQ on it, the Source link seems to have changed). The thing is that what it boils down to is this:
If you can use a weapon to do it, you can use weapon finesse for your CMB while using that weapon - like if you're using a light mace to trip, you can use your dex on your CMB for that trip.
Here's the thing about grappling, though:
Improved Grapple requires Improved Unarmed Strikes. For the purposes of Weapon Finesse, both unarmed strikes and natural weapons - such as claws or bite - count as light weapons. If you're building a grappler, you're taking at LEAST Improved Grapple, which means Improved Unarmed Strikes (possibly even just splashing that first level of monk to get both as class feats and throw in +2 saves across the board), so...
If I have Weapon Finesse, and either claws or Improved Unarmed Strikes... Do I apply my dex to grapple if it's higher?
I believe the contention there for Weapon Finesse and Combat Maneuvers is that if it fails, you can loose the weapon to negate a reversal, and while you have a point about Improved Unarmed Strike/Claws counting as armed/light weapon, Loosing a Hand/Claw in combat would probably not be a preferred outcome...
I have the most updated PHB and some language seems to have been removed
My understanding is no, not unless you have Agile Maneuvers. You might have claws on your hands or be using the same hands you use to make unarmed strikes, but you are not in fact making an unarmed strike when you attempt a grapple.
Barring some special ability, the only combat manuevers that can be performed with a weapon are Disarm, Sunder and Trip. You could use weapon finesse if you performed those with your unarmed strike, but not grapple. Old post detailing this fact.
Zarius wrote: OK, so small bit of info, I'm trying to build a grappler and me and my GM ran into a point of contention, of which we can BOTH see BOTH possible arguments.
In both the weapon finesse and agile maneuvers feat is an FAQ note about using Weapon Finesse for combat maneuvers (I can't find the actual Paizo FAQ on it, the Source link seems to have changed). The thing is that what it boils down to is this:
If you can use a weapon to do it, you can use weapon finesse for your CMB while using that weapon - like if you're using a light mace to trip, you can use your dex on your CMB for that trip.
Here's the thing about grappling, though:
Improved Grapple requires Improved Unarmed Strikes. For the purposes of Weapon Finesse, both unarmed strikes and natural weapons - such as claws or bite - count as light weapons. If you're building a grappler, you're taking at LEAST Improved Grapple, which means Improved Unarmed Strikes (possibly even just splashing that first level of monk to get both as class feats and throw in +2 saves across the board), so...
If I have Weapon Finesse, and either claws or Improved Unarmed Strikes... Do I apply my dex to grapple if it's higher?
the answer is no because you are not doing an attack roll against CMD but a CMB against CMD so you need agile maneuver and agile maneuver do not help you for trip, disarm, etc. because it is an attack roll
Technically, at least in the case of trip, if you fail by 10+, you get tripped... UNLESS you have a trip weapon, which you can drop instead. A fail grapple is just a failed grapple, and a failed Disarm drops your weapon if you fail by 10 or more (or, presumably, roll a critical failure). But you don't drop your hands if you take the -4 for disarming without a weapon, do you?
Overrun:
If your overrun attempt fails, you stop in the space directly in front of the opponent, or the nearest open space in front of the creature if there are other creatures occupying that space.
Trip:
If your attack exceeds the target’s CMD, the target is knocked prone. If your attack fails by 10 or more, you are knocked prone instead.
Note that there is an advantage to using a weapon with the trip special feature (a.k.a. a “trip weapon”) when making a trip combat maneuver: if your trip attack fails by 10 or more, you can drop the trip weapon instead of being knocked prone.
Disarm:
If your attack fails by 10 or more, you drop the weapon that you were using to attempt the disarm.
This is the main reason for contention, though:
Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll.
I'm a humanoid. I'm grappling. I'm using a finesse weapon to grapple. But my hands are free, because my weapons ARE my hands, either through Improved Unarmed Strikes, or through claws, both of which are finesse weapons.
Quite the conundrum, in my opinion.
John Murdock wrote:
[..] agile maneuver do not help you for trip, disarm, etc. because it is an attack roll
Nope. This is wrong. This is flat wrong. Agile Maneuvers:
Benefit: You add your Dexterity bonus to your base attack bonus and size bonus when determining your Combat Maneuver Bonus instead of your Strength bonus.
Is Trip a combat maneuver? Yes. Disarm? Yes. Sunder? Yes. And, from the same FAQ note:
The Agile Maneuvers feat applies to all combat maneuvers, not just disarm, sunder, and trip, so it is still a useful option for a Dex-based creature that uses combat maneuvers.
EVERY Combat Maneuver would use dex, not just a couple. It's literally Weapon Finesse for CMs. Period.
OP must be referring to this FAQ. I'll cite the relevant bit.
FAQ wrote: ...if you're attempting a disarm, sunder, or trip maneuver, you can apply your Dex bonus instead of your Str mod on the combat maneuver check (assuming you're using a finessable weapon, of course). For other combat maneuvers, you use the normal rule for determining CMB (Str instead of Dex). Basically, the FAQ points out that Disarm, Trip, and Sunder are generally allowed with Weapon Finesse, and that any other maneuver uses regular rules.
A GM is well within his rights to rule other maneuvers to fall into the Weapon Finesse regime, but I feel that if he does so, he further invalidates the need for feats like Agile Maneuvers, something which the FAQ has clearly stated to have at least some edge over simply using Weapon Finesse to qualify for its benefits.
Zarius wrote: a failed Disarm drops your weapon if you fail by 10 or more (or, presumably, roll a critical failure). a critical failure do not make you lose the weapon, you consider critical failure and critical success as normal roll for effect like if you succeed by x and more or fail by x and more, let say you attemps to disarm and you roll a natural 1 you fail but by how much if the result is higher than 10 and more like you fail by 9 and less or you just fail because it was a natural 1 nothing happen you are not disarmed
Oh, hey, THAT is helpful, Darksol! THANK YOU!
But this further asks the question of "what about grapple weapons?"
There ARE weapons that have grapple feature. There's even one obscure one that gives a +2 to grapple when using it.
But here's two key problems with the claim that it's not applicable:
"You are considered to be armed even when unarmed"
"Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but he can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on his attack roll. He has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling."
(In case it matters, the character does have two monk levels)
The FAQ is clear. CMB for sunder, trip, and disarm. Str for the other combat maneuvers. The existence of a weapon with a grapple feat does not negate the specific test of the FAQ.
However, you have a reasonable enough position if the FAQ didn't read as it did and it's not unreasonable. So if you point this out to the GM and ask if she would allow it anyway, perhaps it would be allowed.
But the FAQ specifies exactly what type of combat maneuvers it applies to; so you'd get dex to those, but not grapple.
By default you don't use weapons for Grapple (which is the only way that Weapon Finesse could apply). Here's the blog on it. Basically, by default you only use weapons (and it specifies very explicitly unarmed strikes and natural attacks count for this) with Disarm, Trip, and Sunder. You might be able to use them with others (with GM permission) and anything that lets you use a weapon to make a maneuver (it mentions Polearm Master) also gets the bonus from the weapon.
For further confirmation, here's the design team saying that an Amulet of Mighty Fists doesn't apply to Grapple. The amulet explicitly gives a bonus to attacks with unarmed strikes and natural attacks. If it doesn't apply to Grapple then you're not using an unarmed strike or natural attack to make the Grapple.
Basically, Grapple is an attack (as are all combat maneuvers) but it's not an attack with a weapon unless you have some specific rules that say otherwise. Dan Bong doesn't do it (it only gives you a bonus). Even grapple weapons rarely count (the grapple quality only lets you make a Grapple attempt on a crit). Mancatcher is the only one I can think of that lets you just use the weapon to Grapple whenever you want.
Zarius wrote: Oh, hey, THAT is helpful, Darksol! THANK YOU!
But this further asks the question of "what about grapple weapons?"
There ARE weapons that have grapple feature. There's even one obscure one that gives a +2 to grapple when using it.
RAW, the grapple weapons still use Strength, because the FAQ specifically calls out Weapon Finesse and Sunder/Trip/Disarm, and then refers to other maneuvers, which Grapple falls under. Meaning, even if you have Weapon Finesse, because it's not Sunder/Trip/Disarm, it doesn't benefit.
RAI, a GM can reasonably say that weapons with the Grapple weapon ability that can be Finessed can apply it to the Grapple attempts, but like Weapon Finesse, it applies only with the weapon. Any attempt outside the weapon probably wouldn't.
Mmm. I know of one weapon that DOES actually get used in Grapples, but it's third party (The Dan Bong, actually gives a +2 to grapples when used). However, I would say that a weapon that automatically initiates a grapple when you get a critical hit with it would count, inherently, as being used in grapples. Same with the Mancatcher and the Garrote. Both of them are explicitly used FOR the grapple.
However, tri-Bob has the most relevant point here. AMF expressly amps natural attacks and unarmed strikes, but expressly does not apply to grapples. That's... unfortunate, but sufficient for me. Agile Maneuvers it is, I suppose.
i think weapon finesse should have been handled as a weapon property that is available by default instead of being a feat. but i also don't beleive the monk and rogue should be classes as much as a combat style and skillset that a member of any class can respectively choose to utilize.
Removed a number of posts and replies. Do not engage in bickering or insulting behavior on our forum.
Recent threads in Rules Questions
|
