damnation feats - what happens when you become an outsider?

[slugworth]

So I have a pretty straightforward question: what happens when you transform into an outsider?

when you take the fourth and final damnation feat, fiendskin states the following:

fiendskin entry wrote:

"Your creature type changes to outsider (native). Additionally, choose one energy type to which your patron’s outsider subtype grants immunity or resistance. You gain immunity to that energy type."

I almost assumed it was flavor, but that term outsider directly links to this information:

outsider entry wrote:

Anoutsider has the following features.

d10 Hit Dice.
Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (fast progression).
Two good saving throws, usually Reflex and Will.
Skill points equal to 6 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. The following are class skills for outsiders: Bluff, Craft, Knowledge (planes), Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth. Due to their varied nature, outsiders also receive 4 additional class skills determined by the creature’s theme.
Traits: An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

so let's say a wizard summons a demon and convinces it to be their patron, then they take these feats. does the wizard recalculate their BAB and hitdice to reflect the change? skills too? is it all retroactive?

[Eltacolibre]

You don't change a thing. Outsider type is only for racial hit dice, not class hit dice.

[Saethori]

Yes and no.

Whatever creature type you had before is replaced with being an outsider, and you gain all the associated changes as you mentioned, including hit dice, BAB, and skills per hit die.

However, none of this impacts class levels, which is what the majority of PCs are going to have. A human has zero racial hit dice, so none of these are changed. You don't have any 'levels' in human, they're all class levels instead.

An awakened fox, in contrast, has three racial hit dice (one naturally, two granted to it from being awakened), and then any number of class levels beyond that. If he sold his soul and became an outsider, those three racial hit dice would change, but none of his class levels would.

[Secret Wizard]

your electability increases, given the current political climate

[tempestblindam]

You are also now an outsider, not a humanoid. So an array of spells no longer work on you, and you need, for instance Bane: Outsider (Native) as opposed to Bane: Humanoid (Human) for opponents to get a bonus against you. OTOH if you're a Tiefling or Aasimar, very little changes.

[slugworth]

Saethori wrote:

Yes and no.

Whatever creature type you had before is replaced with being an outsider, and you gain all the associated changes as you mentioned, including hit dice, BAB, and skills per hit die.

However, none of this impacts class levels, which is what the majority of PCs are going to have. A human has zero racial hit dice, so none of these are changed. You don't have any 'levels' in human, they're all class levels instead.

An awakened fox, in contrast, has three racial hit dice (one naturally, two granted to it from being awakened), and then any number of class levels beyond that. If he sold his soul and became an outsider, those three racial hit dice would change, but none of his class levels would.

ah, I had forgotten about racial hit dice! thanks for the clarification.

It seems like you would still get the traits since they aren't based on character advancement though, right? Like dark vision, class skills, martial weapon proficiency.

[Eltacolibre]

If you don't have racial hd...basically no. You can look it up it's a question that keeps coming back but has been answered a long time ago.

[Murdock Mudeater]

slugworth wrote:

It seems like you would still get the traits since they aren't based on character advancement though, right? Like dark vision, class skills, martial weapon proficiency.

As per the description, it doesn't change your race, just changes your creature type. so if you had racial HD, that BAB and such would be affected, but it won't change your racial traits (like orc ferocity or weapon familiarity).

Oh, I think the entry here is better for the damnation feats. It's a pretty interesting feat line, but potentially very debilitating.

[slugworth]

Murdock Mudeater wrote:

slugworth wrote:

It seems like you would still get the traits since they aren't based on character advancement though, right? Like dark vision, class skills, martial weapon proficiency.

As per the description, it doesn't change your race, just changes your creature type. so if you had racial HD, that BAB and such would be affected, but it won't change your racial traits (like orc ferocity or weapon familiarity).

Oh, I think the entry here is better for the damnation feats. It's a pretty interesting feat line, but potentially very debilitating.

yeah i realize it's a bit risky, but it seemed like fun, and I was going to use it on arcanist that will be using planar binding and eventually will prestige into diabolist, so I can get the most bang for my evil spells. if some vengeful devil murders me and I can't come back, I will at least have died a worthy death.

I'm not 100% sold on the outsider traits bit yet, though. It seems like if your type changes to outsider, you would get the traits of an outsider. I can think of at least one precedent for this, which is the capstone for the knight of the sepulcher archetype anti paladin, although that example is a bit more explicit:

knight of the sepulcher wrote:

At 20th level, a knight of the sepulcher joins the ranks of the undead. His DR increases to 10/bludgeoning and good. His type changes to undead, and he acquires all undead traits. Although immune to disease, he can still carry and spread diseases with the antipaladin’s plague bringer ability. The undying champion no longer has a Constitution score. He uses his Charisma score for calculating hit points, Fortitude saves, and any special abilities that rely on Constitution.

[Murdock Mudeater]

slugworth wrote:

Murdock Mudeater wrote:

slugworth wrote:

It seems like you would still get the traits since they aren't based on character advancement though, right? Like dark vision, class skills, martial weapon proficiency.

As per the description, it doesn't change your race, just changes your creature type. so if you had racial HD, that BAB and such would be affected, but it won't change your racial traits (like orc ferocity or weapon familiarity).

Oh, I think the entry here is better for the damnation feats. It's a pretty interesting feat line, but potentially very debilitating.

yeah i realize it's a bit risky, but it seemed like fun, and I was going to use it on arcanist that will be using planar binding and eventually will prestige into diabolist, so I can get the most bang for my evil spells. if some vengeful devil murders me and I can't come back, I will at least have died a worthy death.

I'm not 100% sold on the outsider traits bit yet, though. It seems like if your type changes to outsider, you would get the traits of an outsider.

Totally agree you'd gain outsider (native) traits, but you don't gain your patron's subtype, so it's a short list without having racial HD:

Darkvision 60ft. That's it. Plus, as a non-humanoid, certain spells will affect you differently.

Given that it changes your creature type without changing your race, I would be inclined to houserule this as allowing you to keep your racial subtypes for the purposes of prerequisites and interaction from other class abilities (like ranger favored enemy).