I have two requests for Paizo. Whether they'll even consider them or whether they'll see this post is entirely up to fate, but I have two very important pleas to make.
1.) The Level-0 Bard Spell, Summon Musical Instrument, is restricted to instruments that can be held in two hands. While I understand that this is key in preventing players from summoning a grand piano on top of a villain, I believe this also restricts some of the more creative character concepts from taking form. A better option, in my opinion, would be to stipulate that any instrument that cannot be held in hand must be summoned in an unoccupied square within 5 feet, and cannot move from that square. This will keep players from wheeling an organ off a cliff and if someone wants to use a large instrument, they have to deal with movement restrictions while playing it (or use another round to summon the instrument in a new location).
2.) I was rather surprised when I couldn't find this already, but I would LOVE to see a metamagic feat/archetype/bloodline/etc. that allows a player to decrease the casting time on at least a single cantrip. Yes, I am aware that Quickened spells exist, but I don't think it's unreasonable to have a feature similar to rapid reload where a magic user can decrease the casting time of a cantrip by one action step (standard to move, move to swift). I know that with some cantrips like Daze and Touch of Fatigue reducing the casting time can be a WORLD of difference, but if you limit the ability to cantrips that have no saving throws, it pretty much just becomes a fun utility ability.
If you're wondering why I'm here on the Paizo boards to field such requests, it's because my players recently came up with two amazing character concepts and I was sad to see that it was difficult to work them in using the rules. And while normally the rules stop game-breaking characters from happening, in this case it felt more as if the rules did not provide the right tools to help aid in the creation of a really cool character. Their characters were:
Doshi - A mute Minkaian Bard/Monk who plays the Taiko drum, a large, 5' diameter Japanese drum traditionally stood on its side and played with clubs. He would summon the instrument at the start of combat and play it with his fists; anyone who got too close would be hit with unarmed strikes. (However, due to the restrictions of Summon Musical Instrument, he cannot use the Taiko drum.)
James McClannahan - An angry, clearly Scottish skald who plays the lute and is sick and tired of bards being considered weak. He would use the spell Alter Musical Instrument to make his lute almost always sound like an electric guitar. Any time someone entered melee range, he would immediately swing his lute at them as an improvised weapon; should the lute break, he would use Summon Musical Instrument to create another, and potentially not miss a single beat in his Performance. He would eventually take the Improvised Weapon Mastery feat, allowing his lute to do 2d6 damage; an amount that is comparable to/better than most two-handed weapons. (However, due to the casting time of Summon Musical Instrument, this build becomes hard to accomplish without resorting to actual weaponry.)
Paizo, I beseech you, if we can have spells like Poisoned Egg and Commune With Birds, then surely these requests are not outrageous.
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You are the GM. The rules allow you to make these changes (outside Pathfinder Society). Don't restrict yourself and limit your players by what the official rules say.
In general, the first is a cantrip of Hold Portal, and the second allows for swift attack cantrips and free attack/save boosts, so it works if your players aren't abusing the system, but they might not be a good general changes.
I know that the GM is allowed to make the final call, but I hate to see players discouraged from creative ideas simply because they don't see anything in the rules that lets them make it. Oftentimes players won't tell me about a concept they had simply BECAUSE the rules said no first.
And as far as the cantrips go, 0-level spells that boost saves have a Saving Throw themselves (Resistance, for example). And it could easily be worded that any cantrip that requires an attack roll can't be affected.
Just curious, how would Hold Portal come into play? I guess I'm not really seeing where that would apply; as well as it being a 1st-level spell.
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Just curious, how would Hold Portal come into play? I guess I'm not really seeing where that would apply; as well as it being a 1st-level spell.
Summon an extremely large instrument into the square the door would swing into. The door can't open. And said large instrument is immovable.
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I hear your complaint about rules not supporting concepts. But... I find myself unable to avoid raining a poo-storm on these two. I just have a gut reaction to them.
Doshi - A mute Minkaian Bard/Monk who plays the Taiko drum, a large, 5' diameter Japanese drum traditionally stood on its side and played with clubs. He would summon the instrument at the start of combat and play it with his fists; anyone who got too close would be hit with unarmed strikes.
A guy who only participates in combat when the enemy comes to him. Oh, and bardic song... when the enemy doesn't bother to drop silence near him.
James McClannahan - An angry, clearly Scottish skald who plays the lute and is sick and tired of bards being considered weak.
Wait. A guy who's tired of bards being considered weak, so he's going to use an improvised weapon all day long.
Anyway, there's a 0% chance that these two rules change suggestions will get made. For backwards-compatibility purposes Paizo will be very reluctant to every directly modify Core rules that have been around for well over a decade, even if there's a great flavour reason to do so.
The good news is that there are already rules for a PC researching spells independently. That leaves the room for your bard players to come up with variant summon instrument spells that work as you wish.
I hear your complaint about rules not supporting concepts. But... I find myself unable to avoid raining a poo-storm on these two.
I appreciate your thoughts on independent spell research. I'll definitely look into that. But I think it's counter-productive and a bit excessive to spend your time telling me why you think my player's characters are dumb. They honestly just want to make fun characters and it's that kind of attitude that stops players from taking risks and being creative.
Summon an extremely large instrument into the square the door would swing into. The door can't open. And said large instrument is immovable.
Do you have any suggestions to counter that?
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I hear your complaint about rules not supporting concepts. But... I find myself unable to avoid raining a poo-storm on these two.I appreciate your thoughts on independent spell research. I'll definitely look into that. But I think it's counter-productive and a bit excessive to spend your time telling me why you think my player's characters are dumb. They honestly just want to make fun characters and it's that kind of attitude that stops players from taking risks and being creative.
Well, yes, but you're asking for Paizo to publish these rules as official, and boy, they would cause some trouble - for every nice and good player of yours there are people out there who would abuse the hell out of either.
I think you need to work a bit on your player's attitude, and suggest that if they have a cool idea which is not represented in the rules they should approach you and ask if you can work something out. That's about the best way to handle it.
Well, yes, but you're asking for Paizo to publish these rules as official, and boy, they would cause some trouble - for every nice and good player of yours there are people out there who would abuse the hell out of either.
I think you need to work a bit on your player's attitude, and suggest that if they have a cool idea which is not represented in the rules they should approach you and ask if you can work something out. That's about the best way to handle it.
I'll take ideas like this to the advice boards in the future.
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I hear your complaint about rules not supporting concepts. But... I find myself unable to avoid raining a poo-storm on these two.I appreciate your thoughts on independent spell research. I'll definitely look into that. But I think it's counter-productive and a bit excessive to spend your time telling me why you think my player's characters are dumb. They honestly just want to make fun characters and it's that kind of attitude that stops players from taking risks and being creative.
You are right, and that's why I admitted I was raining poop. My problem is... well, my groups play a bit more seriously than this. A stationary fighter and someone who explicitly goes out of his way to be underpowered to express his dislike of being underpowered... is so... confusing.
I absolutely didn't mean to offend, just couldn't not express my confusion.
I just read "player hates casters, so is going to build a wizard", sort of.
Anyway, my compliments (and apologies) for taking my comments in stride.
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I'll take ideas like this to the advice boards in the future.Well, yes, but you're asking for Paizo to publish these rules as official, and boy, they would cause some trouble - for every nice and good player of yours there are people out there who would abuse the hell out of either.
I think you need to work a bit on your player's attitude, and suggest that if they have a cool idea which is not represented in the rules they should approach you and ask if you can work something out. That's about the best way to handle it.
Another possibility: Have your players bring the ideas to you (and run them through the Advice forum if you like). Run an entire campaign with said ideas. Come back here and report on how awesome (or not) the changes were, what good things (if any) the changes created and what problems (if any) they created. Ideas are great, and most players, DMs, and groups can come up with some... getting a post mortem on them after you try them... not so common.
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Summon an extremely large instrument into the square the door would swing into. The door can't open. And said large instrument is immovable.Do you have any suggestions to counter that?
Unfortunately, yes: "You can't summon an instrument too large to be held in two hands."
Unfortunately, yes: "You can't summon an instrument too large to be held in two hands."Summon an extremely large instrument into the square the door would swing into. The door can't open. And said large instrument is immovable.Do you have any suggestions to counter that?
Lol well aren't you helpful
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Lol well aren't you helpfulUnfortunately, yes: "You can't summon an instrument too large to be held in two hands."Summon an extremely large instrument into the square the door would swing into. The door can't open. And said large instrument is immovable.Do you have any suggestions to counter that?
The only other thing I can think of is that "Only those who wish to physically interact with the actual instrument (as opposed to the instrument's music) are forced to. They can change this choice every round." But that is way too wordy, and creates a spell that works differently than all other summon spells. I would suggest a higher level spell for summon greater instrument which does what you asked for. My thoguht would be level 2.
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Lol well aren't you helpfulUnfortunately, yes: "You can't summon an instrument too large to be held in two hands."Summon an extremely large instrument into the square the door would swing into. The door can't open. And said large instrument is immovable.Do you have any suggestions to counter that?
"If the instrument is too large to be held in two hands, the spell 'summons' a transparent illusion of the instrument that only the caster can interact with. The caster can use it to produce sound (i.e. the caster can use it to produce Bard Effects), but it cannot be physically interacted with in any way. It provides no cover/concealment, and has actual no physical substance, cannot be climbed on or used in any way other than by playing it."
Sort of like "Air Guitar" for the Organ... or "Air Drums"
In fact , if we were to use something like this for all instruments summoned by this spell, bards would be seen to use "air guitar" more often...
Summon Instrument ideas:
Create a Summon Instrument II spell that can create an instrument of up to 10 pounds per caster level. Shatter is a level 2 spell that can destroy an item of 10 pounds per caster level, so building one up shouldn't be too hard.
Masterwork Transformation is a level 2 spell that will take a regular item and make it masterwork, and has gp value limits that could apply to the Summon spell also.
Damage ideas:
Jolt is a level 0 cantrip that could be reflavored [maybe as Shriek] to suit your campaign for a minor damage spell for bards. d3 damage
Ear-Piercing Scream is a level 1 spell that could be reflavored to suit your campaign for a minor damage spell for bards. d6 per 2 levels, 5d6 max.
Discordant Voice is a feat that could be flavored to be a ranged spell and self-only, and only requiring X ranks of any perform instead of 10 in sing/oratory. A d6 [and for sure 2d6] would be pretty strong though at level 1, so scale it down to a d3 or d4, or make the X something like 4 ranks.
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Three words: New Bardic Masterpiece, replacing a 0-level spell slot (or feat).
"If the instrument is too large to be held in two hands, the spell 'summons' a transparent illusion of the instrument that only the caster can interact with. The caster can use it to produce sound (i.e. the caster can use it to produce Bard Effects), but it cannot be physically interacted with in any way. It provides no cover/concealment, and has actual no physical substance, cannot be climbed on or used in any way other than by playing it."
Sort of like "Air Guitar" for the Organ... or "Air Drums"
In fact , if we were to use something like this for all instruments summoned by this spell, bards would be seen to use "air guitar" more often...
Now that's a rad idea! A sort of ethereal instrument summoning spell. Honestly I see it as a non-combat parallel to Spiritual Weapon. If that spell is level 2 and basically acts as a bonus attack, it wouldn't be unreasonable to have a cantrip that only replaces a tool.
At the end of the day this type of spell would simply free up Bards and Skalds to be a bit more creative with their instrument. And since one of the perform skills is Oratory, I would argue it's safe to say that a Bard should have the ability to never be deprived of their instrument; that's what Silence spells are for.
Three words: New Bardic Masterpiece, replacing a 0-level spell slot (or feat).
I love that! See that's kind of along the lines of what I was thinking. I was pondering the possibility of a metamagic feat.
Perhaps a feat that decreases the spell-slot needed to cast a spell by one. It would not change the spell's actual level in any way (so Wish could not be used to cast Miracle) but just the slot used for it. You must be able to cast the spell to affect it (meaning a 16th level Wizard would not have access to Wish). AND if the spell's level is zero, then instead of reducing the slot level, it reduces the casting time by one increment (full-round --> standard action, etc.). \
I don't think it's an entirely unreasonable feat, and if it potentially leads to level 2 characters breaking the game wide open, then there's always prerequisites.
Honestly I've been watching my Gunslinger figure out all the ways he can reduce reload times. He has a musket, so to start it's a full-round action and he's managed to get it down to a swift action with alchemical cartridges. While watching him I thought, "Hey! Wouldn't it be cool if spellcasters had ways to do something similar?"
I'm aware that swift-action high level spells will ACTUALLY destroy the entirety of the game, but a cantrip or two can't do too much damage...if handled carefully.
For the first one, I think a variant summon musical instrument that ignores the size restriction, but only creates a virtual instrument is the best answer.
For the second, I think you can keep the base concept but change the focus a bit. Rather than have a focus on improvised weapon and summon musical instrument, create an exotic weapon that is both a lute and an axe. That will end up being more effective (since the weapon can be enchanted) and it isn't particularly likely to break, eliminating the problem with summon musical instrument.
The only other thing I can think of is that "Only those who wish to physically interact with the actual instrument (as opposed to the instrument's music) are forced to. They can change this choice every round." But that is way too wordy, and creates a spell that works differently than all other summon spells. I would suggest a higher level spell for summon greater instrument which does what you asked for. My thoguht would be level 2.
Spells get wordy all the time. Because the magic system is so complex and has so many moving parts, they often have to account for some small buffoonery that players keep trying. That's why some spells that create acid or corrupt water have the text "This spell cannot affect water inside a creature."
I don't think wordiness is ever a problem when it comes to spell descriptions lol
For the first one, I think a variant summon musical instrument that ignores the size restriction, but only creates a virtual instrument is the best answer.
For the second, I think you can keep the base concept but change the focus a bit. Rather than have a focus on improvised weapon and summon musical instrument, create an exotic weapon that is both a lute and an axe. That will end up being more effective (since the weapon can be enchanted) and it isn't particularly likely to break, eliminating the problem with summon musical instrument.
That's sound advice yeah. The player was just excited to smash a lute over someone's head, summon another lute, and then smash that lute over their head again.
It devolved into a debate as to whether bardic performance stops if the instrument was destroyed, but an identical instrument was summoned seconds later. He argued that he could "just pick up on the next verse".
God I love players.
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For the first one, I think a variant summon musical instrument that ignores the size restriction, but only creates a virtual instrument is the best answer.
For the second, I think you can keep the base concept but change the focus a bit. Rather than have a focus on improvised weapon and summon musical instrument, create an exotic weapon that is both a lute and an axe. That will end up being more effective (since the weapon can be enchanted) and it isn't particularly likely to break, eliminating the problem with summon musical instrument.
Perhaps adding a Bayonet to the lute would be another possibility, although you cant usually add a bayonet to a lute, I'd imagine it'd be no more unusual combo than an axe / lute.
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It devolved into a debate as to whether bardic performance stops if the instrument was destroyed, but an identical instrument was summoned seconds later. He argued that he could "just pick up on the next verse".
God I love players.
Technically, many of the Bardic Performances, including inspire courage, don't have any perform roll at all, and therefore you don't actually have to play anything. The performance has to have audible or visible components, but other than that it can be anything you want. So a bard that normally plays a lute, could still sing, dance, crack jokes or just about anything else they wanted to do, even if they didn't have ranks in those perform skills, and the bardic performance would work just fine.
Taiko drum:
Enchant with a permanent shrink item.
Command word causes it to grow/shrink when needed.
Lute:
I like the alter summoned instrument for an electric guitar.
However, as an improvised instrument, it should be counted as an axe.
/cevah
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The problem with the second one is that it is easily abused by a magus. Essentially every magus would take the feat and get an extra attack as part of spell combat (giving you THREE attacks at level 2). Really powerful.
As for the first one, cantrips are supposed to be minor feats of magic. Summoning a 125 cubic foot hunk of wood and cloth (even if it disappears when you stop using it) is a bit beyond the scope of a spell that is supposed to deal 1d3 cold damage, don't you think?
Really do like your idea for a taiko drumming bard though. May I suggest using Hanbo? They are a light weapon (so you can dual wield them) and do damage as a club. Plus they are simple weapons. As for how to lug around a taiko drum, I dunno. Gloves of storing don't work (max weight is 20 lbs). I'll look around for other solutions.
For the first instance the cantrip says the instrument has to be able to be held in two hands. It does not say that it has to be able to be played while being held in two hands. Can the drum be held in two hands when it is not being played? If it is able to be held in two hands you can summon it with the cantrip. The spell even says that it appears in your hands or at your feet (your choice). You really should read the descriptions of the spells before complaining it cannot do what you want.
The second instance could be handled by making the lute out of an unusual material so it does not break. Paueliel has a hardness of 7 which is half way between wood and steel. You could also allow the lute to be made of metal in which case and adamantine in which case it will probably not break.
Anything that changes the action economy should be looked at very carefully. Allowing spells that can already be cast an unlimited number of times per day to be cast a swift action is a very bad idea. It really opens a whole can of worms that is best avoided.
A better way to handle this would be to create a higher level spell that does what you want. Maybe a first level spell that causes the instrument to reappear when it is broken or thrown. When a player wants a spell to be more powerful the best way is to create a more powerful spell of higher level