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I am having trouble parsing out a number of abilities that are centered around having a free "hand", such as Slashing Grace.
If I replace the hands with claws -- such as the draconic bloodline Claws ability -- do the claws still count as "hands" for purposes of off hand?
If I shape shift into an ape, does one of my slam attacks count as a free hand?
If I am polymorphed into a bat, I can carry things, but do I have hands?
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There is no one answer to this question, because different Developers and authors have had their own interpretations when writing a variety of abilities.
There are physical hands (snakes have 0, humans have 2, kasatha have 4), and then there are metaphorical hands (snakes have 2, humans have 2, and kasatha have N).
Somewhere in there is mixed primary hand and off-hand.
It's best to ask a specific question, such as "Does X work", rather than a general application regarding "hands".
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There is no one answer to this question, because different Developers and authors have had their own interpretations when writing a variety of abilities.
There are physical hands (snakes have 0, humans have 2, kasatha have 4), and then there are metaphorical hands (snakes have 2, humans have 2, and kasatha have N).
Somewhere in there is mixed primary hand and off-hand.
It's best to ask a specific question, such as "Does X work", rather than a general application regarding "hands".
Please elaborate, Nefreeti. My mind is grasping still after ten minutes at snakes have 2 hands.
Please elaborate, Nefreeti. My mind is grasping still after ten minutes at snakes have 2 hands.There is no one answer to this question, because different Developers and authors have had their own interpretations when writing a variety of abilities.
There are physical hands (snakes have 0, humans have 2, kasatha have 4), and then there are metaphorical hands (snakes have 2, humans have 2, and kasatha have N).
Somewhere in there is mixed primary hand and off-hand.
It's best to ask a specific question, such as "Does X work", rather than a general application regarding "hands".
It is possible for a creature to have 0 physical and metaphysical hands. Snakes fall into this category. A snake can does not have hands for any purpose at all.
Dang, this is serious. I was going to say "the dangly bit at the end of your arm, attached at the wrist."
A good rule of thumb for Slashing Grace? If you're not trying to do exactly what it says on the tin (i.e. you're not doing anything at all with your other hand) the odds are pretty good that it doesn't work.
So claw attacks and slams are out, and I'm pretty sure a bat's hands are its wings (the little bit that sticks out at the top of the wing is a bat's thumb).
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Please elaborate, Nefreeti. My mind is grasping still after ten minutes at snakes have 2 hands.There is no one answer to this question, because different Developers and authors have had their own interpretations when writing a variety of abilities.
There are physical hands (snakes have 0, humans have 2, kasatha have 4), and then there are metaphorical hands (snakes have 2, humans have 2, and kasatha have N).
Somewhere in there is mixed primary hand and off-hand.
It's best to ask a specific question, such as "Does X work", rather than a general application regarding "hands".
Two examples:
If snakes didn't have two "hands" (notice the quotation marks), they'd take a penalty on grapple checks, as you need two "hands" free.
An Awakened snake wearing armor (via stitches) with armor spikes and a tail blade would be capable of using their primary "hand" and off-"hand" for two-weapon fighting.
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Did you ever hear a story, possibly as a cautionary tale, about someone telling a small lie, then having to tell a bigger one to cover for it, leading to another, and another, and more until it's such a huge and complex web that they finally lose track of it and it collapses?
This is kind of like that. They put out a much desired Dex to Damage feat, but in order to try to head off perceptions of overpoweredness (as well as potentially cut off Magus from any non-scimitar options), they rewrote the free hand restriction into it. Similarly, to stamp out questions about dual wielding with a two-handed weapon and either kicks/boot knife, headbutt/stone lord helmet, barbazu beard, or armor spikes, the concept of metaphorical hands of effort was introduced. Perhaps the most unintuitive and esoteric way possible to say "Guys, no. We don't want this.".
So, in answer to your question, hands have mostly been a limiting tool used to sculpt the gaming experience desired by the powers that be. If you're running a non-PFS game, hands are what you want them to be; do with them as best suits your needs (I suggest leniency in service to fun).
If I replace the hands with claws -- such as the draconic bloodline Claws ability -- do the claws still count as "hands" for purposes of off hand?
Yes. Just... don't ask me for a rules quote.
If I shape shift into an ape, does one of my slam attacks count as a free hand?
Probably not. An Attack is an Attack, not an appendage. An ape does have two hands though, so as long as one is empty, you have an empty hand.
If I am polymorphed into a bat, I can carry things, but do I have hands?
No. You have feet and wings. It's the feet you could use to carry things. You cannot have a free hand, as you simply do not have a hand.
All that said, "hand" is, as pointed out by other posters, more of a theoretical, metaphysical and nebulous concept to a lot of the game's rules than an actual body-part. So just apply a pinch of logic, a smidgeon of balance and two heaps of what-is-the-most-fun to whatever the exact problem in your case might be.
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So, in answer to your question, hands have mostly been a limiting tool used to sculpt the gaming experience desired by the powers that be. If you're running a non-PFS game, hands are what you want them to be; do with them as best suits your needs (I suggest leniency in service to fun).
Scythia post is mostly true, even if a bit abrasive, but in a home game hands are what the GM say they are.
The best option is to ask him/her.
Please elaborate, Nefreeti. My mind is grasping still after ten minutes at snakes have 2 hands.There is no one answer to this question, because different Developers and authors have had their own interpretations when writing a variety of abilities.
There are physical hands (snakes have 0, humans have 2, kasatha have 4), and then there are metaphorical hands (snakes have 2, humans have 2, and kasatha have N).
Somewhere in there is mixed primary hand and off-hand.
It's best to ask a specific question, such as "Does X work", rather than a general application regarding "hands".
Two examples:
If snakes didn't have two "hands" (notice the quotation marks), they'd take a penalty on grapple checks, as you need two "hands" free.
An Awakened snake wearing armor (via stitches) with armor spikes and a tail blade would be capable of using their primary "hand" and off-"hand" for two-weapon fighting.
The not-enough-hands penalty on grapple checks only applies to "humanoid creatures," and therefore not to snakes.
Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll.
(Note that "humanoid" is for once being used as an adjective, not as a noun; a druid wildshaped into a snake (still type humanoid) doesn't get the penalty either.)
Your awakened example looks right to me, though.
Dang, this is serious. I was going to say "the dangly bit at the end of your arm, attached at the wrist."
Mine doesn't really dangle much, should I be concerned?
Mine doesn't really dangle much, should I be concerned?
Give it a slap on the wrist, maybe that will set it straight.