So Mesmerists have the Mental Potency class attribute. Here it is:
Quote: Mental Potency (Ex) -- A Mentalist’s mental effects can affect more powerful creatures or a greater number of creatures than normal. Both the Hit Die limit and the total number of Hit Dice affected by each enchantment or illusion spell it casts increase by 1. For enchantment and illusion spells it casts that target a number of creatures greater than one, the number of creatures affected also increases by one (so a spell that targets one creature per level would be affected, but a spell that targets only one creature would not be). The Reptoid race also gets this as a racial attribute, and if you're a Reptoid Mesmerist, it stacks. Okay, so... what spells on the Mesmerist list would be affected by this?
At low levels, I only see a few. Cause Fear doesn't qualify because it's necromancy. The Daze cantrip now goes to 5 HD instead of four, and the second level spell Daze Monster goes from six to seven. Color Spray... yeah, that's not really clear. It would be pretty nifty if it did stack, because Color Spray is a pretty powerful low level spell. Hypnotism goes from 2d4 HD to 2d4+1; Hypnotic Pattern goes to from 2d4+level to 2d4+level+1. Absurdity and Anonymous Interaction affect one more creature. But they're creatures/level, and you're already fourth level by the time you can use them, so no big deal. You get one more creature on Rage (it's normally one/three levels). Scare would be very good, getting a double boost on both HD and creatures affected, but... like Cause Fear, it's necromancy. Bah.
And that seems to be about it, at least for spell levels 0-2. Not very impressive, unless you allow Color Spray, in which case I'd say it moves from "hardly worth bothering" to "meh".
Am I missing something? Does this class attribute get much better at higher levels?
Doug M.
Pretty sure I saw color spray used as an example of what mental potency would affect somewhere.
Level 3 spells include deep slumber and lesser geas. The latter might matter.
Whoops, I quoted from the wrong source. Here's the corrected version:
Quote: Mental Potency (Ex)
At 5th level, the mesmerist can affect more powerful creatures or a greater number of creatures than normal with his mental effects. Both the HD limit and the total number of HD affected with each enchantment or illusion spell he casts increase by 1. For enchantment and illusion spells he casts that target a number of creatures greater than one, the number of creatures affected also increases by one (so a spell that targets one creature per level would be affected, but a spell that targets only one creature would not be). For example, a 5thlevel mesmerist could affect 5 HD worth of creatures with sleep, affect 2d4+1 HD worth of creatures with hypnotism, and change the categories for color spray to “3 HD or fewer,” “4 or 5 HD,” and “6 or more HD.” The number of additional HD or creatures increases by an additional 1 for every 5 levels beyond 5th, to a maximum increase of 4 at 20th level.
It's a class attribute that kicks in at 5th level, so you won't get a lot of mileage out of Daze or most first level spells. However, Color Spray is specifically on the list, so that's a thing -- Color Spray is still occasionally useful even at 5th or 6th level. Not so much beyond that, though, and the scaling with levels is painfully slow.
Preliminary list of spells that are affected:
0 level
Daze
1st level
Auditory Hallucination
Color Spray
Hypnotism
Sleep
2nd level
Absurdity
Anonymous Interaction
Daze Monster
Hypnotic Pattern
Rage
3rd level
Audiovisual Hallucination
Deep Slumber
Demanding Message
Dreadscape
Lesser Geas
Several of these are pretty useless as they're "one creature per level", which becomes fairly pointless by midlevels. Others allow a marginal improvement, like Lesser Geas being able to affect creatures with up to 8 HD instead of 7.
Demanding Message is an interesting case, because its obvious intention is "you send a message as per Message, up to one recipient/level but then you can cast Suggestion on one recipient". However, under strict RAW, it looks to me like you'd get one extra recipient /and/ one extra target for Suggestion. Not exactly game-bending -- remember, Mesmerists already get Suggestion as a 2nd level spell -- but something.
Overall this class ability is looking very meh indeed. Which is a shame, because the Mesmerist is generally a pretty fun and flavorful class.
Doug M.
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The problem is the same as it ever was. Fear spells should be enchantment instead of necromancy.
to me this is a great ability to look for trading out in an archetype ;)
Douglas Muir 406 wrote: Whoops, I quoted from the wrong source. Here's the corrected version:
Quote: Mental Potency (Ex)
At 5th level, the mesmerist can affect more powerful creatures or a greater number of creatures than normal with his mental effects. Both the HD limit and the total number of HD affected with each enchantment or illusion spell he casts increase by 1. For enchantment and illusion spells he casts that target a number of creatures greater than one, the number of creatures affected also increases by one (so a spell that targets one creature per level would be affected, but a spell that targets only one creature would not be). For example, a 5thlevel mesmerist could affect 5 HD worth of creatures with sleep, affect 2d4+1 HD worth of creatures with hypnotism, and change the categories for color spray to “3 HD or fewer,” “4 or 5 HD,” and “6 or more HD.” The number of additional HD or creatures increases by an additional 1 for every 5 levels beyond 5th, to a maximum increase of 4 at 20th level.
It's a class attribute that kicks in at 5th level, so you won't get a lot of mileage out of Daze or most first level spells. However, Color Spray is specifically on the list, so that's a thing -- Color Spray is still occasionally useful even at 5th or 6th level. Not so much beyond that, though, and the scaling with levels is painfully slow.
Preliminary list of spells that are affected:
0 level
Daze
1st level
Auditory Hallucination
Color Spray
Hypnotism
Sleep
2nd level
Absurdity
Anonymous Interaction
Daze Monster
Hypnotic Pattern
Rage
3rd level
Audiovisual Hallucination
Deep Slumber
Demanding Message
Dreadscape
Lesser Geas
Several of these are pretty useless as they're "one creature per level", which becomes fairly pointless by midlevels. Others allow a marginal improvement, like Lesser Geas being able to affect creatures with up to 8 HD instead of 7.
Demanding Message is an interesting case, because its obvious intention is "you...
its a really good ability for color spray builds go mesmerist with 1 level dip into crossblooded sorc and 2 level dip into heavens oracle and you can be effecting creatures with 12ish hit die at level 8 with color spray and thats for the really good effects could get like 17 hit die for the lowest effect
Hidden Presence is another 2nd level spell which would be affected. 1 creature/3 levels which makes +1 creature targeted useful. Although I'd prefer the reliable if less extensive invisibility to hidden presence usually.
DominusMegadeus wrote: The problem is the same as it ever was. Fear spells should be enchantment instead of necromancy. Yeah, this has never made any sense.
It's a double shame because Mesmerists can pick up the Nightmare Stare, piling on with fear effects.
Doug M.
we had a mesmerist/oracle/sorc in one of our campaigns they had like a dc 23 color spray with around like 22 hit die that he could effect up to and could cast it like 24 times per day it was quite funny only person that could beat it was my character who only failed on a 1
Lady-J wrote: go mesmerist with 1 level dip into crossblooded sorc and 2 level dip into heavens oracle and you can be effecting creatures with 12ish hit die at level 8 with color spray and thats for the really good effects could get like 17 hit die for the lowest effect Not really. If you start with an 18 Cha, by 8th level with boosts and an item it's 22, which is +6. If you're a mesmerist 5/oracle 2/sorc 1, you're getting +7 on your Color Spray levels. Which, okay, is strong enough: you can stun creatures up to 12 HD, stun and blind creatures up to 10 HD, and so forth. Pretty powerful.
However:
1) Even with the crossblooded dip, there'll be a bunch of things you can't affect. I'd argue that you're better off with Coaxing Spell, Threnodic Spell, and the Psychic Inception stare.
2) Tactically, Color Spray's super limited short range will always be a nuisance. You're squish, and you need to get within 15'. You can use Enlarge Spell to double the range, but you'll probably want to use a rod, because you're not going to have a lot of second level spell slots to play with.
3) This is a glass cannon, save or suck, one trick pony. You're ganked in pretty much every other way: at 8th level you have BAB +4 and no spells above second level. You're useless in melee and you're dangerously squish. You'll end a lot of combats with a single spell slot, but you'll also have stretches where you're just useless -- constructs, plants, things with blindsight, etc.
4) As you reach higher levels, SR becomes more common and Will saves get higher. Gradually, it's going to get harder and harder to zap things with a first level spell, no matter how powerful. This is a strong (if unbalanced) build at midlevels, but it's not going to carry you past Volume 4 of an average adventure path.
5) YMMV, but I have to think "I cast Color Spray!" is going to get pretty boring after a while. And that's almost all this character can do.
Doug M.
avr wrote: Hidden Presence is another 2nd level spell which would be affected. 1 creature/3 levels which makes +1 creature targeted useful. Although I'd prefer the reliable if less extensive invisibility to hidden presence usually. Okay, good. Any others? I'd like to post a complete-ish list of at least first through fourth level spells.
Doug M.
At the minimum levels they can be cast, this is the effect on some higher level spells:
Forgetful Slumber (4): from 10 HD limit to 12.
Mad Sultan's Melody (4): from 5 targets to 7.
Symbol of Sleep (5): from 10 HD limit to 12.
Greater Shadow Enchantment (6) used for Id Insinuation IV: from 4 targets to 7.
I didn't bother listing the endless 1 creature/CL spells. Also there might be other spells GSE can imitate for useful effects.
Tentative thought: stacking this with the Reptoid moves it from "hardly worth bothering" to "so-so". Of course, being a Reptoid carries a certain amount of baggage.
One possibility might be to ask your DM if you could swap some other racial trait for Reptoid-style Mental Potency. I'm not sure if it's ever been assigned a Racial Point value, but it's pretty clearly worth either 1 or 2 RPs. By way of comparison, other 1-point racial traits include low-light vision, dwarven-style Hatred and Defensive Training, a +10' bonus to base speed, minor breath weapons, resistance 5 to one type of energy, poison use, or a bite attack. 2-point traits include stuff like a static bonus feat, 60' darkvision, the ability to breathe water, or a prehensile tail.
To me it looks pretty clear that Mental Potency belongs in the first group and not the second. But AFAIK there's no official ruling on this, so consult with your DM. Speaking for myself, I'd see no problem with letting a player build (for instance) a gnome who had swapped Illusion Resistance for Mental Potency. At first level he can use Daze on slightly stronger creatures, and cast sleep on 5 HD instead of four: not exactly game-bending.
Doug M.
avr wrote: At the minimum levels they can be cast, this is the effect on some higher level spells:
Forgetful Slumber (4): from 10 HD limit to 12.
Mad Sultan's Melody (4): from 5 targets to 7.
Symbol of Sleep (5): from 10 HD limit to 12.
Greater Shadow Enchantment (6) used for Id Insinuation IV: from 4 targets to 7.
I didn't bother listing the endless 1 creature/CL spells.
Yeah, there are a lot of those. Relevant at lower levels, but by the time you're 10th level, getting 12 creatures instead of 10 is really not a big deal.
Honestly, the more I look at this, the more it looks like a classic case of Paizo giving something cool and useful with one hand, then panicking and nerfing it with the other. Paizo just... does that, sometimes.
Anyway -- thank you!
Doug M.
Chess Pwn wrote: to me this is a great ability to look for trading out in an archetype ;) Okay, there are several archetypes that do this. There's the Autohypnotist, who trades it for the Wide Stare ability. The AH is actually kind of an interesting archetype, and it's probably a trade up.
Then there's the Projectionist. He swaps it for Hidden Presence as a bonus feat. That's pretty specialized. The Projectionist reads like an NPC archetype anyway. I mean, his particular schtick is that he takes over objects. I suppose it might be fun in an espionage/intrigue type campaign.
And then there's the Eyebiter, who is pretty weird. I mean, his psychic power is that you generate floating eyeballs? But anyway, he trades it for the Staring Eye ability to use his stares and gaze attacks through his eyeball familiar. Since "your stares are powerful but you have to get close to use them, squishy caster" is an ongoing issue with the Mesmerist, that's definitely worth swapping for. I mean, if you're willing to play a floating-eyeball freak of a psychic caster.
Finally, there's the Umbral Mesmerist. That swaps Mental Potency for Ephemeral Stare, which makes you *invisible to the target of your stare*, no save, as long as you don't take hostile action. That's pretty clearly superior. This is another specialized archetype -- you have to want to summon shadow creatures -- but it's a pretty good trade.
Doug M.
I am looking at the hate-monger for giant slayer. It gives up a ton of class abilities (mental potency being one of them), to get favored enemy and instant enemy.
Of course, if I were being really properly thorough, I'd include enchantment and illusion spells that aren't on the Mesmerist list, for all those Reptoid PCs out there. Le sigh.
Okay -- any more spells to add to the list? Anyone?
Doug M.
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