Hey all, was just hoping for some opinions. My group is about to run Dragon's Demand, so we are all new characters. Our group currently has a 2-handed Fighter, an Invulnerable Barb, a Skirmisher Ranger, and a Cleric. I always choose last because I like playing all classes, so I just fill in the blanks. Our blanks seem to be extensive, but the biggest I think are Face, knowledge, and a trap disabler. This is where I'd like some opinions. I figure Bard is my best option, with 2 options, Archaeologist, for traps, face, knowledge, and some ranged arrows to boot, or a plain Bard with disable device, which covers face, knowledge, non-magical traps, and I can buff/debuff instead of the ranged. What do you guys think is the better option? Or if you have another option, I'm all ears. Thanks for the help.
Archaeologist, all of them should be hitting pretty well, so that your inspire courage buff isn't needed to help them hit (like for a TWF rogue that needs all the help it can get).
A seeker wildblooded arcane sorcerer gets disable device like a rogue and is an INT caster for many skill points
A seeker lore oracle gets dd as per rogue and can use cha for knowledge skills.
haven't see that adventure path but based on the name a dragon blooded sorc would fit thematically as would an archanist a normal summoner could also fit all of which could cover party face and knowleges
Out of the two bard choices, base bard is better with that party. I would do that or a seeker sorcerer.
Bomber Alchemist can add Control, Skills, and Ranged options.
Investigator is a very nice class that can provide what your looking for.
Bard would cover the Face skills the best. But honestly Face is not really a mandatory party role. I mean what DM will say Sorry guys because you guys can not make the 25+ DC Diplomacy you are not getting the information and are completely stuck in the story, I'm considering this campaign closed because of this.
Face is one of those really nice options to have but not 100% necessary in a game known to breed murder hobos who kill their way through most printed AP adventures.
Skald would also work giving the ranger and Fighter Rage powers and if the cleric summons any critters would work well.
Really you have a lot of options but I feel the Bomber Alchemist to be the best choice.
Generally speaking, missing out of combat roles is less important than missing in combat roles.
Out of combat roles include things like 'party face' and 'trap disabler.' Knowledge is both in and out, but typically I find it best to split up different knowledges in the party. The cleric is likely to take knowledge undead and the ranger knowledge nature or local for example, and another person taking them is kind of stepping on their toes a bit. The fighter and bard may not have any skill points for a knowledge skill, but if they do and want to take them avoiding doubling up is usually better. In any event, rarely are any of these out of combat abilities necessary for successful adventuring, although they certainly can make things easier.
In combat roles boil down to striker, controller and support. While nearly any class can perform any of these roles, depending on build there are some that are more likely than others. Your party appears to be have three strikers. Cleric is quite good at either controller or support, depending on attributes, feats and spell selection (controllers usually want high dcs and/or summoning focuses or something similar.) More often then not though, Clerics are built with a support role in mind.
If that is the case, your team could really use a controller. The easiest way to do to this in 9th level caster, and pretty much all of them can manage it. Summoner is also quite good at this. If you want trap finding, one of the easiest with this is the Seeker Archetype for either an oracle or a sorcerer, as a bonus that archetype can actually help out your role as a controller. Both are CHR based, so having at least basic competence as a 'face' is pretty easy to achieve as well.
Ideally though in this party the cleric should take the controller role, because with 3 strikers your party would love inspire courage and that would be a huge damage multiplier. I would definitely rather have the group bonus then the ability to disable magical traps, usually their are plenty of ways to either get around or recover from them anyway.
Dave Justus wrote: Generally speaking, missing out of combat roles is less important than missing in combat roles.
Out of combat roles include things like 'party face' and 'trap disabler.' Knowledge is both in and out, but typically I find it best to split up different knowledges in the party. The cleric is likely to take knowledge undead and the ranger knowledge nature or local for example, and another person taking them is kind of stepping on their toes a bit. The fighter and bard may not have any skill points for a knowledge skill, but if they do and want to take them avoiding doubling up is usually better. In any event, rarely are any of these out of combat abilities necessary for successful adventuring, although they certainly can make things easier.
In combat roles boil down to striker, controller and support. While nearly any class can perform any of these roles, depending on build there are some that are more likely than others. Your party appears to be have three strikers. Cleric is quite good at either controller or support, depending on attributes, feats and spell selection (controllers usually want high dcs and/or summoning focuses or something similar.) More often then not though, Clerics are built with a support role in mind.
If that is the case, your team could really use a controller. The easiest way to do to this in 9th level caster, and pretty much all of them can manage it. Summoner is also quite good at this. If you want trap finding, one of the easiest with this is the Seeker Archetype for either an oracle or a sorcerer, as a bonus that archetype can actually help out your role as a controller. Both are CHR based, so having at least basic competence as a 'face' is pretty easy to achieve as well.
Ideally though in this party the cleric should take the controller role, because with 3 strikers your party would love inspire courage and that would be a huge damage multiplier. I would definitely rather have the group bonus then the ability to disable magical traps, usually their...
That is what I was thinking, but you explained it so much better.
Thanks everyone for the information. If voting is the deciding factor, base bard wins 2-1, however, now I have a bigger list than before, as several other builds were mentioned more than once as well. The Dwarf in the party is a support, not a controller, so maybe I'll lean towards the control aspect more than the out of combat aspects.
Wizard, sorcerer, or summoner is probably your best choice in that party. Bard is not bad either, but the first three can do control a lot better.
Archeologist is the clear better option because he covers more of your "holes" while not makin any sacrafices to self or group. If we are talking about the bigger picture beyond bard though I would say that the cleric is the unknown. Depending on what he does or does not do is the pivotal point of what issues your group will face.
But in a vacuum I see a wall of meat that uses mostly melee, a cleric that is unknown to me, and one ranged. That means no arcane caster at all, no fly so maneuvering sucks except by throwing money at it, and so on. I think you need a summoner or an item creation specialist. Either you can just use summoned monsters to take of your issues or hand out the equipment that your group is going to need, especially scrolls. Of the two I think summoner works best but it's up to you sir. Good luck!!
Other options include playing a halfling with the Helpful Halfling trait to give your ally of choice a +4 to a whole bunch of things.
Heck, you could do a ranged build in this party. I recommend investigator with a shortbow and the infusion investigator talent.
Just gonna throw this out there, while a Summoner would certainly be effective bringing it to a table of 5 people might make turns take a while. My vote is being cast for Wizard or Arcanist, which are INT-based classes (filling an ability score gap) with flexibility. Wizard is a tad weaker in raw power but has better progression and more day-to-day versatility.
LuniasM wrote: Just gonna throw this out there, while a Summoner would certainly be effective bringing it to a table of 5 people might make turns take a while. My vote is being cast for Wizard or Arcanist, which are INT-based classes (filling an ability score gap) with flexibility. Wizard is a tad weaker in raw power but has better progression and more day-to-day versatility. that all depends how well the group play together we had a group of 8 and a master summoner and while turns were longer than your standard party they weren't to to much longer, i've also been in a party of about 18 and so long as every one knows exactly what they are going to do before its their turn its not bad at all and you can actually blaze past combat
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