| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So, I (and others) have posted/asked similar topics/questions in the past, but I haven't really seen any good/definitive answers, so I'm asking again, but this time with a little more specificity, so hopefully I'll get better results.
If one was building both an Expert and an Aristocrat (to be in the same party), how would one optimize their fighting roles? The other two roles in the party are a front line fighter and a divine caster (enabler, so not a terribly high casting stat). So, those roles are set.
Basically I'm asking who makes the "better" archer, and who the "better" skirmisher/melee support.
For example, on the one hand, Expert only has light armor, so maybe archer? But also, no martial proficiency, so needs to essentially burn a feat to get a bow (ioun stones are cool, but... I'd rather not resort to that).
On the other hand, Aristocrat has martial weapons, so no need to waste a feat on a bow; however, also gets medium and heavy armor, so less squishy in melee, so maybe wasted potential?
Guys and girls, I'm not asking for a different class to do these things, or a prestige class option, or an ultra cheesy option. Please do not suggest these things. I'm not trying to be harsh, it's just what usually happens on these sort of posts. I understand that these are (hilariously) suboptimal classes. But I love optimizing (or at least making efficacious) the suboptimal. So please, just advice on what's best for the situation.
Example: for a skirmisher, two-handed strength power attacker, or high Dex one handed slashing grace skirmisher? That kind of thing. Anyway, thanks in advance!
EDIT: Should have mentioned this before, but races allowed are the core races (unfortunately not half-orc though) and Catfolk, Ratfolk, Vanara, and Grippli. This is not PFS, and basically anything Paizo on the d20pfsrd is permissible.
Human Aristocrat is viable at lower levels. The weapon/armor proficiencies and human bonus feat can make a decent combatant, and the skill list with bonus racial skill points would be good in social situations. I would go heavier armor and a two handed weapon, with PA.
Imbicatus' recommendation of Elf Expert would also work.
The problem with either build is as you level up, the lack of class features would become more and more of a problem. You would probably be alright to level 4 or so, but after that you would notice a problem.
Thank you folks. I really appreciate the advice.
If I was building an archer Expert, in what order would you recommend feats to be taken (lv. 1-7, say), and should it be elf or half-elf (trade out adaptability for elven weapon familiarity), and with 25 point buy, how would you array the stats? I'm hesitant to dump, because Intelligence is needed for skills, Wisdom for will saves and perception, and Charisma for UMD (which will be a class skill and is always useful)
Similar questions for Aristocrat: Feats level 1-7, and stat array for 25 point build?
I assume these are for come NPCs. If you expect them to need combat ability, why is it important that they don't have PC class levels?
Human Archer Aristocrat
14 12 17+2 12 12 10
level up boost in dex
str con dex int wis cha
1: point blank shot 1hb: precise shot
3: rapid shot
5: deadly aim
7: weapon focus
9: many shot
11: clustered shots
If you need to use an expert you can go human, elf, or half-elf for bow proficiency and take feats in this order instead:
1: point blank shot
3: precise shot
5: rapid shot
7: deadly aim
Mounted Human Aristocrat
16+2 14 14 12 12 10
str con dex int wis cha
level up boost in str
1: mounted combat 1hb: nature soul
3: power attack
5: animal ally
7: boon companion
9: ride by attack
11: spirited charge
Use a lance and charge, use a bought mount until level 5
If you don't want to use a mounted character you could go with:
Tank Human Aristocrat
16+2 14 14 12 12 10
str con dex int wis cha
level up boost in str
1: combat reflexes 1hb: toughness
3: power attack
5: shield focus
7: shield brace
Go with a two handed reach weapon, at level 7 you can use that with a shield because of shield brace.
@Ciaran Barnes
I guess because I know even a one level dip in this or that class makes a huge difference, and I'm just trying to see what the best I can do with just the NPC classes in themselves is.
@citricking
Thanks for the build advice! Expert is basically what I thought, and both options for aristocrat look good.
|
Keep in mind that heavy armor proficiency does not carry the obligation to wear heavy armor. If you don't want to be an Elf (or Half Elf with an alternate racial) to make bows work on the Expert, then don't. Just play an Aristocrat and take something like a Mithral Breastplate. Hell, take full plate anyway, since the whole max dex thing doesn't apply to your attack rolls and the 20 feet move speed doesn't matter as much when you're full attacking at range.
That said, if your pockets run deep then there's a lot of fun to be had with Use Magic Device on an Expert. Maybe with something like Dervish Dance or Fencing Grace to patch up their in combat prowess. A strength based bruiser with Power Attack and a longspear is also servicable. Heck, with a couple more feats and the Helpful trait you could even squeeze a decent Bodyguard build out of it.
@Rosc
I thought about that too. I know the Aristocrat can make a "good" archer, I'm just worried that the Expert will be insufficient in melee... like, insufficient even by these low standards...
Do you think it's possible to make an Expert contribute meaningfully in melee? If so, how?
The Handle Animal skill seems good for giving NPC classes "combat survivability".
@VRMH
Definitely, but I'm looking specifically for a combat build, like weapon types and stay arrays
|
|
@Rosc
I thought about that too. I know the Aristocrat can make a "good" archer, I'm just worried that the Expert will be insufficient in melee... like, insufficient even by these low standards...
Do you think it's possible to make an Expert contribute meaningfully in melee? If so, how?
They are npc classes. They will all be insufficient in any combat style due to lack of bonus feats and class features. They will be subpar and next to useless after level 4 or five.
|
|
@Rosc
I thought about that too. I know the Aristocrat can make a "good" archer, I'm just worried that the Expert will be insufficient in melee... like, insufficient even by these low standards...
Do you think it's possible to make an Expert contribute meaningfully in melee? If so, how?
As said before, Power Attack and a 2handed weapon is a great place to start. Longspears work but races like Half Elves, Half Orcs, Tengu and Elves can provide alternatives.
Cornegon Smash lets you get free Intimidate checks when you Power Attack a guy. Combat Reflexes lets your spear create a wide threat zone. Weapon Focus, Toughness, and Great Fortitude are super boring but they help bridge the numbers gap between you and other front liners.
For a more exotic approach, the three feat chain of Nature Soul, Animal Ally, and Boon Companion give you a fully functional animal companion off of the Ranger list with an effective druid level equal to your character level. By the time you get all those feats, you and your (hopefully Intelligence 3 companion) can take Outflank.
Expert is totally possible. You just have to work harder than other classes to meet a functional baseline. If you go into it with the motto of "high hopes, low expectations" you should be fine. But Gods help you if your party has casters that aren't willing to play nice and focus on buffing allies.
@Ciaran Barnes
I guess because I know even a one level dip in this or that class makes a huge difference, and I'm just trying to see what the best I can do with just the NPC classes in themselves is.
Fair enough. One route to go is to have your "normals" supported by a more powerful enemy - like a boss and underlings. For example, a bard can sing to improve their attacks, or a wizard could toss out a couple of spells to hinder the PCs, or an alchemist toss out a couple of nasty attacks. If you don't want magic, then you could make the head "expert" a career soldier or the head "aristocrat" a noble who had fought in wars (rogue, cavalier, fighter, slayer, etc)
If you are set on those classes use the elf expert and human aristocrat are your best bet. The extra and specific class skills will help the archer. Having acrobatics, climb, stealth perception and maybe survival will help his survivability. Stay hidden and snipe the enemy is your best bet. Give him weapon finesse and have him use rapier and bow. He will want a decent (about 14 STR) for archery anyways.
The extra feat for the human aristocrat is going also be very helpful. At first level he will have the same number of feats as a non-human fighter.
The real problem like people have been saying is they are going to quickly lose steam as they level up. At low level stats are more important than class abilities, but that soon changes.
Thanks everyone! A lot of cool info here! Especially the three feats to get an animal companion. Did not know about that!
So, it seems that the Aristocrat is better at both archery and melee, yes? Due to proficiency, right?
In that case, I just want to know if the expert makes a WORSE archer or melee fighter?
I ask because I'm a bit reluctant to make the Expert the archer, only because the Aristocrat is further ahead on feats and archery is so feat intensive.
But, if the Expert really can't cut it in melee, then archery will have to do.
If the Expert were to melee, what would be good feats, and in what order, since he/she couldn't take either Weapon Focus OR Power Attack at first level...
Melee Expert:
1. Combat Reflexes, human bonus Toughness or Dodge, use longspear
3. Power Attack/Weapon Focus
5. Weapon Focus/Power Attack
7. Furious Focus
9. Lunge
11. Vital Strike (your BAB is relatively low, so might as well skip the iterative for more damage)
Consider using Aid Another if you're having trouble hitting, then just use AoOs. Consider fighting defensively since you're only targeting AC 10.
The melee builds I posted also work with an expert. An expert is always worse at combat than the aristocrat, but you can make do.
The archer at levels 1 and 2 is -4 shooting in melee compared to the aristocrat, while at levels 3 and 4 can't rapid shot, and 5 and 6 less damage. At 7+ all you lose is +1 to hit, so if most of your levels are 7+ I'd make your expert the archer.
Melee loses +2 to AC at first level, eventually going to +5 if the aristocrat gets mithril full plate. If you can get the armor expert trait for the aristocrat you can improve your ac by 2 by using breastplate. The AC lose is annoying but a melee expert should be fine.
Mounted Human Expert
16+2 14 14 12 12 10
str con dex int wis cha
level up boost in str
1: Weapon proficiency: lance 1hb: nature soul
3: power attack
5: animal ally
7: boon companion
9: ride by attack
11: spirited charge
Use a lance and charge, use a bought mount until level 5 when animal ally gives you one.
Tank Human Expert
16+2 14 14 12 12 10
str con dex int wis cha
level up boost in str
1: combat reflexes 1hb: toughness
3: power attack
5: shield focus
7: shield brace
Use a long spear, at level 7 you can use that with a shield because of shield brace.
Thanks again!
Now, just out of curiosity, does anyone think thay if the Expert does melee, it would be worth it for him to either be half-elf, or use the human's bonus feat, to pick up a better weapon? I'm just wondering, even though the advice here is already some really good stuff.
You can get exotic weapons off the human bonus feat so that would be nice, although then you don't get the bells and whistles of being (half) elven so I don't know...I'd probably roll human with an exotic weapon
@Dox
Can't a half elf trade out adaptability for EITHER Martial or Exotic Weapon Proficiency?
But regardless of whether I should do that, most seem to agree that a reach + combat reflexes build is the way to go, à la a reach cleric. Which is something to think about, because he will be spending some time "casting" through the use of Wands...
Oh, and would someone mind taking a sec to explain how reach builds overcome the issue of opposing 5 foot steps?
Finally, Thanks again everyone for the help!
@Dox
Can't a half elf trade out adaptability for EITHER Martial or Exotic Weapon Proficiency?But regardless of whether I should do that, most seem to agree that a reach + combat reflexes build is the way to go, à la a reach cleric. Which is something to think about, because he will be spending some time "casting" through the use of Wands...
Oh, and would someone mind taking a sec to explain how reach builds overcome the issue of opposing 5 foot steps?
Finally, Thanks again everyone for the help!
I really going mounted with a lance is by far better than a normal reach build because you get all the benefits plus a mount, a lance is a two handed reach weapon that you can use with a shield when mounted.
But if you can't go mounted then a half-elf's bonus proficiency is better than a human's because exotic weapon proficiency requires +1 bab, which a human doesn't have at first level. Fauchard and dwarven Longhammer are good choices.
True, mounted does have its benefits, and is definitely being strongly considered. Also, thanks for the reminder about the +1 BAB prereq!
Curious though, for a half-elf's Exotic Weapon Proficiency, is the better weapon die worth giving up the human's feat (since that's basically what it boils down to)?
Also, I'm still confused as to how a reach user overcomes his/her enemies just 5 foot stepping past the attacks of opportunity? Both for mounted and unmounted
Oh, and would someone mind taking a sec to explain how reach builds overcome the issue of opposing 5 foot steps?
There's not that much to explain.
An enemy closes on you. Without reach of its own, it has to move through your threatened area, thus provoking an Attack of Opportunity.
Now it's your turn. You can't attack within 5 ft., so you move away with a 5 ft. step. Your enemy is now 10 ft. away and you attack.
Then it's the enemy again. It takes a 5 ft. step towards you.
You then repeat your 5 ft. away, thus creating a sort of "dance".
There's not much more to it. Hordes of enemies or lots of difficult terrain might prevent you from taking a 5 ft. step away to attack. There's special abilities enemies can possess that might screw you over, like the feat Step Up. Those are fairly rare though. That's the price you pay for fairly easily gaining an initial AoO as the enemy closes on you. Otherwise, it's just trading blows like any pair of combatants.
@Blymurkla
Ahh... so you get a free hit before combat starts (always cool), and then it's, like you said, trading blows as usual. Cool! I was under the impression that one was getting a whole bunch of extra AoOs, not just one per individual fought. Not that I'm complaining! One attack (+combat reflexes!) is WAAAY better than none. Just wanted to make sure I understood. Thanks!
So, I guess my final question, and it's a bit difficult, is this:
If you were building these two characters (just pretend), which would you build for melee and which for archery? What I mean, specifically, is that obviously the Aristocrat is better at both, but HOW MUCH better? I guess I'm trying to quantify it. Like, if the Aristocrat is 45% better of an Archer than the Expert, and 25% better at melee, and the Expert is 10% better at archery than melee, than the Aristocrat is better at Archery than the Expert is worse at Melee. Does that make sense? Math is my NOT strong suit, and sometimes my thoughts are.. obtuse? I hope I conveyed what I meant...
Bump?
Since they have no class features and only slight differences in skills and weapon proficiency, the difference is very little. If you are concerned about combat ability, why are you not using the warrior class for the base attack bonus?
Oh, I know the Warrior could do it better. Heck, a Warrior even kinda makes a passable Power Attacker/Intimidator.
I'm basically just asking what's more useful:
Better AC and damage die for a melee build
OR
Being 1 feat ahead for many levels (Say the Adventure runs from levels 3-12) for an Archer?
EDIT: Thanks everyone for the patience and advice!
Human Expert Archer
1 Additional Traits (Roving Range, Heirloom Weapon)
Bonus Point Blank Shot
3 Precise Shot
5 Rapid Shot
7 Deadly Aim
Use Masterwork Transformation on the Heirloom Weapon before enchanting it. There's nothing really interesting about this character except using traits instead of a weapon proficiency feat.
Human Aristocrat Squad Builder
Choose an Animal Companion or Familiar. A familiar can come online as soon as level 1 and switch over to utility casting at level 7 for an investment of ony 1 trait and 2 feats, but it's more fragile. An Animal Companion can come online by level 7 for 3 feats, but is hardier and can take teamwork feats.
The key to the build though, is that Flagbearer is probably the single most powerful feat with a full team that doesn't already get morale bonuses.
Additional Traits (Dirty Fighter, House of Green Mothers Pupil)
Flagbearer
Nature Soul
Animal Ally
Boon Companion
Blades Above and Below
Familiar Bond
Improved Familiar
@Blymurkla
Ahh... so you get a free hit before combat starts (always cool), and then it's, like you said, trading blows as usual. Cool! I was under the impression that one was getting a whole bunch of extra AoOs, not just one per individual fought. Not that I'm complaining! One attack (+combat reflexes!) is WAAAY better than none. Just wanted to make sure I understood. Thanks!
Well, you get an AoO opportunity for every enemy who closes with you. Can be several in a fight.
There are tactics for gaining additional AoOs. Spells that increase your reach even further, or ways to prevent your enemies from moving and taking 5 ft. steps as they wish. I think, howver, that these tactics are pretty much out of reach for your feat starved, non-magical NPCs.
Another benefit or reach is that you negate enemies' reach. A reach weapon wielder can walk up to an ogre and attack, while one without reach would have to eat an AoO for that.
@Hushed
Flagbearer actually seems really great. Thanks!
@Blymurkla
Yeah, I definitely see the advantage of reach now. Pretty awesome!
So, I think the verdict we're reaching is either a melee Aristocrat with some sort of companion, and an Expert Archer,
OR (and what I think I prefer)
A reach melee Expert and an Archer Aristocrat.
I think I prefer the latter because the Aristocrat already has bow proficiency (and heirloom weapon is cool, but it worries me that it's one SPECIFIC weapon), and will therefore almost always be ahead in feats, whereas Power Attacking basically just needs that... then we can add stuff as icing on the cake... granted, it's at best like a pound cake, but still!
The expert gets more skill points and is able to choose 10 class skills. The aristocrat gets less skill points and has a set list that is good for social skills and knowledges. What the aristocrat does not get is acrobatics, climb and stealth. With these skills the archer can find and get into a position where he can attack without being attacked. Stealth can also be used to snipe at the target which is a fairly good tactic vs creatures with low perception rolls. An archer who can only stand out in the open and fire is limiting his option way more than he needs to. While you may not always be able to use these tactics in a game, not being able to use them at all is very limiting. Being effective in combat is more than just your chance to hit and how much damage you do. Being able to take advantage of the situation is equally if not more important especially for a character without any class abilities.
As it has been pointed out a reach build often still ends up trading blows. The extra attack from the reach weapon is nice but in a long fight is not that significant. The ability to use heavy armor and shields is more important. If the person using the reach weapon has someone to fight behind that would be a different story. A reach cleric is designed to protect the cleric while still allowing him to contribute to the party when not casting spells. This is a good strategy because it allows the cleric to cast spells when needed without having to worry about AoO. The expert has nothing to contribute to the party except melee combat.
Will there be other party member and if so what will they be? If there will be another strong front line melee expert than the reach expert would not be quite as bad. I would still probably go with the expert archer though.
If you were building these two characters (just pretend), which would you build for melee and which for archery? What I mean, specifically, is that obviously the Aristocrat is better at both, but HOW MUCH better? I guess I'm trying to quantify it. Like, if the Aristocrat is 45% better of an Archer than the Expert, and 25% better at melee, and the Expert is 10% better at archery than melee, than the Aristocrat is better at Archery than the Expert is worse at Melee. Does that make sense? Math is my NOT strong suit, and sometimes my thoughts are.. obtuse? I hope I conveyed what I meant...
From levels 1 to 6 it's better to make the expert melee and the aristocrat ranged, at levels 7+ it's better to make the expert ranged and the aristocrat melee. So look at what most of your levels will be at and choose.
Overall it'll work either way and both will be fine no matter which you choose to be melee and which to be ranged, The differences between the classes are less important than good stats/equipment.
Lots of good stuff here! Thanks!
There WILL be another front line fighter (a fighter) who is probably using a heavy flail and definitely using Improved Trip.
Also, the Experts will definitely have UMD as a class skill, and some good wands, so he could (poorly) occasionally function as a "reach caster" in a loose sense of the term.
And I definitely see the point about skills and other factors/options besides hit and damage in combat...
Oh man... stuff to think about...